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waster pretty much said everything.

When I see weapons like natasha or wrangler in the game, makes me fear what valve might add with this open beta, there is absolute no skill in those weapons no matter what argument you bring into discussion, and the worst thing is that they destroy the pace of the game. Also you wont be able to tweak them, since it wont be a small group of people testing and giving opinion, it will be hundreds of opinions and nothing good can come out of that.

Personally I dont like weapon limits, I even use some unlocks which gives a new option to the class (sandvish, bonk), but some weapons just destroy the game

what most people here want with the gathering of comp/pub is leveling the game from below, which is not a good thing. Competitive comes from competition aka challenge, if casual players wants a new challenge they can try the competition side of the game and start from the bottom, we dont need to addapt the competitive side to look more like a pub than an actual competition

Quoted from Waster

[…]But the setup of soldiers, demoman, scouts is effective now? So this isnt really an answer.

I agree, if it works the best currently there’s no need to change it.

Quoted from Waster

The reason they are different is because there are different needs. Some wants to play casual and one time a week.

Playtime has nothing to do with it really. I play comp because it’s more organised, strategic etc.

Quoted from Waster

Moreover, the format between comp and pub is the same. We allow all classes, even in most pub server i dont see crits anymore. Moreover, what might work for one game doesnt work for others. TF2 is a quiet unique game with its classes, so balance is a point of interest in our game while it isnt in other games for example. How this relates to TF2, if a pyro is usefull on pub, but it isnt on comp scene, we need to change the whole TF2 dynamics to still make pyro usefull in comp matches. An absurd reasoning.

It’s not what I’m saying, it’s what valve want according to most people in this thread. My point is and always has been that if valve suddenly made the heavy viable to run full time and it required skill etc., most people would just opt to ban it rather than try and learn how to use it. If vanilla really is the best, then allow everything and prove it.

Unlocks slow the game down doesn’t really make sense, then why do we like this ubercentric play so much? You can achieve the same strategy with kritz/buff banner. If you’re arguing for choice, then make uber reduce damage rather than make you invincible, surely that would promote faster gameplay?

Quoted from Waster

The mindset you are thinking is the following. In CS i saw a pub players who never bought a weapon, he only killed players with his knife and glock. This strategy isnt used in competive. While still these weapons are there. Why not change the whole CS game so everyone who wants to play knife/glock-only can still be succesfull.

Sort of, but it’s more like the scout is underpowered compared to the awp, so no-one uses it. Should be the same here, where there are no limits, things just aren’t used because they aren’t viable. I’m talking about unlocks not classes by the way.

Quoted from Waster

Whats the problem with that if we found a balance where we can have fun?

Nothing wrong with it, but it would require more strategy and thought to consider every unlock and use them if they suit a particular situation. Isn’t that what you find most fun?

Quoted from Waster

We are in a competitive community. Making decisions based on players who arent in our community doesnt make sense. Thats the reason where you go wrong. And if people have fun on public, why would they play in competitive. I wouldnt, because its way easier to find a random pub. You should search for the people that are tired to play pubs and are ready for a challenge. Those players make the competitive community richer.

I have fun in pubs still sometimes, doesn’t mean I can’t play competitive as well. If you don’t make the effort to expand, the community will only contract. Whether this is through in-game balance or other initiatives like the highlander challenge doesn’t matter, but the effort has to be put in somewhere.

Quoted from iQue

[…]

In comes the unlocks. Do they help the class to make it more viable in competitive play, make it a better all around class? Some of them perhaps, but the large majority of them add nothing to the game and only makes that particular class so much less fun to play against. The direct hit for example is not that terribly unbalanced, but it has less than satisfactory effects – being instagibbed as a scout/sniper/spy at mid range isn’t fun, being hit by random dh spam across the map hurts a lot more than it should… not to mention dealing with a soldier with dh in general, he has a much easier time to airshot you AND you’ll take ridiculous damage as well. If an explosion lifts you 1 mm up into the air a dh rocket will suddenly make you take 130 damage right in the face. It’s random and boring to play against.

Then there are unlocks that actually do help that particular class, like the equalizer or bonk. While the game isn’t bad without them, it’s a shame to ban them.

Medic weapons + bonk + equalizer + jarate perhaps?

TDH is allowed in the US, but most comp soldiers don’t use it because it isn’t viable. But they have the choice to. That’s how it should be.

Quoted from RaCio

[…]They have already stated they were going to review the wrangler an natasha. In fact you could see the beta as a solution the problems instead of another problem. You are right that we might not be able to distinct ourselves on the steamforums, but remember valve has stated multiple times they read multiple forums. So it’s completely up to us to prove we can give better feedback.

Best post in this whole thread.

Quoted from Haunter

[…]

U missed my point, those specific weapons doesnt really matter, my point is the fact they will keep releasing weapons that will either: 1) start discussions in this forum 2) destroy the pace of the game

And u can say that they read our forum , they will fix, etc… but when was natasha released? and its still not fixed…

Valve are only human and their record on doing things quickly is quite horrendous (see: valve time) But it doesn’t mean their not working on it. Their a 10 man team there’s only so much they can do at any one time.

I agree it’s fix has been long overdue but their isn’t anything WE can do about that.

1) start discussions in this forum
Thats what forums are for…….. I don’t see a problem.

2) Destroy the pace of the game
I agree some unlocks do need to banned and restricted, it’s unavoidable really. But the unlocks that are perfectly viable need to be allowed and not restricted.

A few keywords this pointless discussion is resolving around:
unlocks, utilities, pubbers in comp.

Don’t forget TF2 hasn’t been created as a competitive platform – competitive scene here is an artificial creation, meant to put game’s theme and various aspects, such as different classes and cp style gameplay, into one box with a few rules which would make it more ‘civil’. By civil I mean the already mentioned difference between comp and pub style of play. If pubbers are not into comp style, you won’t get them here – let them be, they are probably casual workers, wanting to have some fun before going to sleep. The thing we should do is not encouraging players to play comp by banning/allowing unlocks or making classes more balanced/versatile, but presenting them how comp looks like so they could have a choice.

TF2 open beta is probably Valve’s attempt at fixing the not-so-awesome idea of casual oriented game. Since it has a big player base already and lots of potential, they want to widen the spectrum of people possibly interested in the game. Unlocks were never meant for comp, so if we actually want to use any of them, we should allow all of them and let higher divisions decide if they want or not to play with them. On the other hand though, as we can assume e.g. from Tikcus’s posts, people would have trouble making such an agreement.

If anyone is going to quit playing the game because his favourite unlock was banned in comp play, then there was something terribly wrong in the very beginning.

Quoted from Haunter

fps tweaks

This <3