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THE REAL ISSUE OF EU TF2
Created 7th August 2012 @ 21:00
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Quoted from kaidus
I personally put it down to the fact that they are backed by a serious esports organisation which makes their players look professional, which gives birth to admiration from prospective fans.
surely you dont mean ESEA?
The only thing ESEA did for 8 seasons was allow TF2 to pad their bank without giving back to the community in any meaningful way, what coverage they did give us was usually put together by someone who knew nothing about TF2 or who the players were.
We had community icons, we had carnages and m0lks and relics and (more recently) salamancers and extines and b4nny’s. Our players put hours and hours of time that some of them dont have into streaming, content, wanting to put on the best show they can. I dont know much about the EU scene, but in the NA scene, the invite players are a huge part of the community at every level. Every single day, the invite players are on the same team as someone who is playing ESEA for the first time, pugging together on equal grounds. They usually don’t rage at the new kids, they guide them, tell them what to do, inspire them to work at their game. This gives us community figures that draw viewers. If random barely competitive player Joe plays a pug with Pyyyour and Pyyyour gives him a few tips about how or when to engage, what to shoot at or just /something/, Pyyyour now has a new fan and every mixup game from that point forward has a new viewer. We grew our viewership from the ground up, our interest from the ground up by producing not just games, but characters, along the whole way.
Like I said, I don’t know much about high level EU, but I don’t feel that same excitement or energy around the top players. When I ask someone from an EU mix who the best medic is, there is hemming and hawing, they dont know. F2? Byte? They dont have a hero figure to rally against. When you ask an NA player who the best demo is, everyone says B4nny, if you ask soldier, you get mixed ideas, but they are conflicts, dialogue about who really is the best player. This excitement didn’t happen, it was cultivated by building up characters in the community, making them accessible when playing with the new guys, and then making them look like bad ass mofos on streams.
So yeah, those 200 people that are watching Pyyour stream pub play as I type this, they aren’t there necessarily because they think its fun to watch him lob stickies at people who can’t even spell dodge. They are watching because Pyyyour has taken time out of his busy life of being a top tier medic to play with people who aren’t at that level, they want those nuggets of wisdom about the game and sometimes life that he throws into every single game he plays. They want his personality and character.
If you want EU TF2 to have the viewer count, the excitement, the LAN counts, you have to build teams that are iconic, players that are heros of their classes. I just don’t think you guys do that nearly as well as the NA teams/players/streamers/casters do.
The issue is that most of us wanted a vanilla league, which we now have.
Remember when most of the teams left ETF2L for esl ?! Season VI was ok but season VII was a complete failure, so many teams dropped it.
esl will bring us more support but we already tried it so many times without success. It won’t work…. Ever !
I think the NA cup is interesting at some point, some weapons are really valuable in term of teamplay and organisation. Pain train, equalizer ( or whatever it’s been called now ) etc…
Perhaps admins should re-think of adding a few unlocks in season 13, which will bring up new players into comp TF2 and allows us to play TF2 differently.
Last edited by Xabi,
We had those players shdw. They all quit about a year ago. Byte is pretty much the last remaining player of our original generation of “real” pros.
PEOPLE ARE TURNING THIS INTO A UNLOCK DEBATE AGAIN- STOP! we discuss how we can advertise our league better and how we can rais the prizepools. We have other threads were we can discuss unlocks and how they changed the game/ made it more boring / more intresting.
I agree that dropping ESL was a big mistake done by the TF2 european scene and i guess they wont take us back in the nearest future – but its worth a try if we present them the latest viewers amounts we can get etc. And i agree with Skyride , its not done just by posting your ideas and complaining we actually have to take care of stuff our selfes. But if not yet seen any comment on this from “official” site and i would love to hear their statements since i offered my help with it aswell. I also know that this thread was already beeing discussed by the admins in their irc channel but thats exactly the issue – we need better communication between the different fractions of this league. I dont want to hear premiership players moaning about stuff in their doublemixes but i also dont want to see the administration of ETF2L discussing in their private irc channels. There are clear issues that have to be solved in terms of comms in the ETF2L making us a very slow league.
Last edited by IPZIE,
Quoted from Xabi
The issue is that most of us wanted a vanilla league, which we now have.
Remember when most of the teams left ETF2L for esl ?! Season VI was ok but season VII was a complete failure, so many teams dropped it.
esl will bring us more support but we already tried it so many times without success. It won’t work…. Ever !
I think the NA cup is interesting at some point, some weapons are really valuable in term of teamplay and organisation. Pain train, equalizer ( or whatever it’s been called now ) etc…
Perhaps admins should re-think of adding a few unlocks in season 13, which will bring up new players into comp TF2 and allows us to play TF2 differently.
are you serious?
Quoted from shdwpuppet
[…]
Too long to really dissect, but I really don’t agree. I’ll just bullet some points.
1. Pyour and Tyrone are the only top players streaming with any semblance of a personality, so that really isn’t the reason. I enjoy all the invite streams, but I watch, for example TLRs for the gameplay as he basically says nothing the majority of the time. This does nothing to hurt his numbers though.
2. People will tell you b4nny is the best demo cause it’s a no contest. No idea who you talked to but one look at the polls will tell you F2 is categorically and unequivocally considered the greatest medic in EU. The same way stefan is the best scout. Really dunno where this information comes from that we don’t have this.
3. For a long time NA was far behind EU in terms of it’s scene. The last couple years of ESEA are the key reason the balance flipped.
4. I really don’t think the hero worship has anything to do with players involvement in the community. Whether this involvement is greater than that of european top players or not (I personally doubt it, I can’t be sure) is not the reason, as the majority of the fans are the sort who will brag about having once played on the same pub server as Platinum, ruwin, etc. It clearly stems from somewhere other than community involvement, cause these sort of fans form a large bulk.
5. Like you say, you really don’t know a lot about the EU scene. The names and faces are all pretty interchangeable between the two continents in reality, the only difference is the last year or so where EU has stagnated, big names left, but that brings us the full circle back to the start of the problem. The reasons those players left are the same as those for which this thread was created.
Last edited by kaidus,
rts stop derailing im gonna take care of this.
”
So yeah, those 200 people that are watching Pyyour stream pub play as I type this, they aren’t there necessarily because they think its fun to watch him lob stickies at people who can’t even spell dodge. They are watching because Pyyyour has taken time out of his busy life of being a top tier medic to play with people who aren’t at that level, they want those nuggets of wisdom about the game and sometimes life that he throws into every single game he plays. They want his personality and character.”
Byte has a huge mentorproject in the ETF2L with a stream/youtube account/ drawing tactics and stuff. Helping div6 – div1 players all through the etf2l divs but still just barely reaches 80 viewers at times. Same goes for kaidus, and he is defenitly a “character” in the european tf2 scene. I agree with him when he says that the NA players just come arround more like idols or “heros” cause there league comes arround so much more professional. Ofc its also because they are funny guys and they mix and help people getting better at their games but this also happens here a lot and cant be the reason for more viewernumbers
i just want the admins of etf2l to step up and say : okay guys we have this problem to solve and we need that or that guy to help us out. we need a PR manager for example or someone that is close to the big public communites. I know that beeing admin in the etf2l is the most ungrateful job you can have in the european tf2 scene and i know that the admins are putting alot of work in fixing the day to day problems, accepting adminrequest all day long, trying to keep the league running / w/e. But we really have to start to see the bigger problem. Ofc at one point we will have to discuss the unlock debate and we will have to get on the same level with the whole community but that is really the last problem that is out there to solve. Its about keeping people intrested to become really really good at this game and its about keeping those who are really really good intrested in playing this league.
Last edited by IPZIE,
Quoted from Skyride
The real issue with TF2 is that people will post in this thread and think they’ve helped. Nothing will happen and everyone will feel like they tried.
They really won’t. After trying to get people to help with the newbie mixes, people will try, then if something goes wrong, or needs to be fixed they will give up.
Me and some other admins contacted leaders of other communities to advertise Newbie mixes, so it can be done. But you will find some of them hate comp, so you have to be careful about that.
Ipz, you seem to have good ideas, why not become this PR manager?
Also getting an audience is all about personality. Getting someone like Darn, who most people seem to like, to stream would be good. Or just someone who is interesting and can tell stories. So if you know someone like that on your team, tell them to go stream.
Also Ipz, if you need any advice in terms of PR, I have a little, mostly what to avoid doing, feel free to add me.
Last edited by CrashSite,
You don’t need to entice new players. Sure that would help but just give them something to be enticed by and the rest does itself.
FUCK.
Byte is nowhere close to being the best medic in terms of dodging and healing, so I don’t know you have been smoking shadowpuppet, but you should stop :D. His strength lies in his calling.
And fuck me? Iconic teams? I don’t think anything comes even close to 4kings/Dignitas, even from the NA scene.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Quoted from Koeitje
Byte is nowhere close to being the best medic in terms of dodging and healing, so I don’t know you have been smoking shadowpuppet, but you should stop :D. His strength lies in his calling.
And fuck me? Iconic teams? I don’t think anything comes even close to 4kings/Dignitas, even from the NA scene.
Well complexity…
Also MMM, just cos I love their name <3
Well i studied management and pr work but my biggest downgrade is that im not really that good in writing and communicating with people in english. Also i would want this position to be a position where you and just the head admins are sitting together so i dont constantly would have to ask 8 admins in 3 headadmins or whatever. I would really like to do it tho :)
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