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But it’s massively detrimental to any strategy because the heavy can just switch to a non-ubered target and slow them, especially on last points like gully, gran, freight where ninja caps and just getting the fuck on the point isn’t nearly as effective as killing their team.
The only counter I can think of is jumping 2 soldiers at once towards him because he can’t shoot two at once. Then the soldiers do 400 damage and the heavy moves back onto a sandwich he dropped massively extending his lifespan. By then the soldiers have been 100% useless for a push and should have just ignored the heavy. Also there’s no guarantee they will uber without soldier pressure
The effect is still annoying “deathgrip” says it all… long range natascha shots still make you sprint like a cripple

slow is lame

natasha should only slow on a close range.

Sandman got banned because it slows the game down, natasha slows down the game even more.

Quoted from Ripple

natasha should only slow on a close range.

Sandman got banned because it slows the game down, natasha slows down the game even more.

imho you are wrong, sandman disables the player. so he isl left defenseless. Natasha however exposes you some more time to the danger zone, whereas you are still able to “run” and shoot stuff.

But you have a point there.

are we going to argue this again trax :D

minigun > natascha in heavy vs heavy fights
for anything else, natascha > minigun, the slow is invaluable

Quoted from Waster

My question is, what changes to TF2 will make the competitive scene better? Crying like a baby as fragga does wont change anything. That even some people agree with him is beyond my imagination, because he didnt put any argument into this thread.

We are playing with mostly with scouts, soldiers and demoman (and medic off course) in the competitve scene. Is that a problem? As long as people like it and its fairly balanced it isnt. So why should we introduce the other classes more into the competitive scene?
Will it bring more skill to scene or more strategy? I dont think so. I think dying in one stab or one head/bodyshot is annoying enough. Its the long battles where skill and strategy shines that seperates the good from the bad players. I have also a large complaint about the natascha heavy. He is just standing there without moving and slowing down people. Because of the slowdown it isnt even a skill anymore to hit people with it. I think that bringing more utility classes to the game will remove skill and strategy from the game. It will also remove the surprise value these classes have when they are used now.
Then the argument is used that it will increase the competitive community. When after the highlander al those engineers, pyro’s and spies can find a home in a 6vs6 team. But the question is, why should we care about these people? If they are more interesting playing their utility class then being competitive, whats the point in introducing them to the competitive community? What we are doing is, we decrease the level of the 6vs6 competitive level to the publevel and say our competitive community is growing! But at the same time you can say the overal skill level and strategy to play the game declined! I dont think that anyone in the competitive community wants that, because then we cant improve and get good, the whole point of getting competitive. In fact nobody restricts spies, pyro’s, engies, heavies. Any team, div1 to div6 can play with them! So if a team like to play with all those four classes, they can do now. Why do we need valve to change the game for that?

I think that anyone should agree with changes that will make the class balance better and that will add strategy and skill to the game. So if valve is doing that i am all up for it. But if we take a closer look at the unlocks valve added, we now this isnt the case. All unlocks seems to remove class balance and strategy! Sandman, fan, buff banner, direct hit, natascha, wrangler to name a few.

About maps. The only fun maps are the maps designed by valve. Really, if they put their effort in making stupid hats in unlocks into making good maps, this game would be much better off. I cant really be happy with maps like yukon, prolane, mainline, coldfront. If we want to try something new. Why not play some payload maps instead like badwater and upward?

FINALLY a good argument

So basically, if Valve made it skillful to play pyro, spy, etc. you will be OK with it?

“We” don’t need to do anything. If valve makes pyro more viable than scout for example, anyone “competitive” will naturally play them anyway. So it’s all down to the class design.

It’s the same with unlocks, but as they are banned in Europe, the game doesn’t evolve due to valve’s balancing. Look at the US for example, their metagame has shifted to soldiers suiciding on the medic constantly with gunboats, because that unlock is allowed and viable.

The question then is, do we want a dynamic game where we are tasked with changing strategies in the face of ever growing unlocks (or equally, ignoring the useless ones); or do we want to keep everything constant and attempt to balance ourselves by banning what we feel is detrimental to the current metagame, and using map design as the only medium of change?

Quoted from Mark

[…]

Why do we play Gullywash and Obscure? Or are they exceptions to the rule because they were made by known players?

stop hating

and yes they are shit

I fully agree with Waster. You don’t need new hats, unlocks, classes, etc.

What we do need is:

-New maps (CP, CTF, Koth perhaps). More creativity there, maybe even new possibility’s with jump pads etc.
-New gamemodes (not even neccesary)

I’m kinda dissapointed with the last few large updates, that those didn’t introduce those things.