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Quoted from compton

[…]

Just because your goal is attainable doesn’t make it any better.

OOOH YOU JUST GOT SAT

And what do you expect to happen in the meantime? Just let everybody hack as much as they want since you didn’t reach your goal?

Quoted from davesan

I’d personally like to see an anti cheat program, from past experience in numerous leagues where an anti cheat client is present there have been far better bans with actual physical evidence.

Suggest one that we can actually get and isn’t shit.

While I agree something needs to be done about the current AC system, your post below is not the way to go about unbanning someone.

Quoted from Kritzonite

The obvious response following the receipt of this information is to ask why, if Beavern is so skilled, he would choose to remain in a division 5 team?

Your point here is subjective unless you have evidence the admins ban based on skill level relative to the division they are playing in.

Quoted from Kritzonite

The final point related to Beavern is one already raised in positive terms by a few in the posts commenting on the bans, that being his character.

I don’t know him, so I don’t know how nice he is. I’m sure the AC team doesn’t either. Again, character should never factor into suspicion. Your quote “Just as in a real trial, juries hear of a person’s character, good or bad” is laughable as any sane judge will ensure the jury decides based on facts, not character.

Quoted from Kritzonite

On secrecy

I agree the best system would be transparent with a “trial” and appeal system, however I doubt this is currently possible with the manpower available to the AC team. Not a lot of people take this into account, but just because something should be the case, doesn’t mean it is possible.

Then again, I don’t buy the argument that explaining how an admin spotted a hack will help any cheaters improve their ability to hide their 3rd party program use. There are and have been quite a few anti-cheat admins across many leagues and I would expect (though speculatively) this knowledge is fairly public. Ensuring all players in a league are happy with the way it is operated is just as important as keeping cheaters out, as they are tied to each other (essentially you are keeping players “happy” by keeping it cheat-free).

If you want to see the system improve, volunteer your services and make some sort of effort in trying to learn the techniques to being a successful AC admin. Until then, all talk is simply hot air.

Quoted from Kritzonite

The old saying “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely”

Unless you have tangible evidence of corruption, such accusations are counter-productive and poisonous to your argument.

The reason admins are hidden is both to ensure there is no outside influence and to prevent them from attack. As long as there is impartiality between the admins themselves (which currently there is not), remaining hidden should not be the problem.

Quoted from Kritzonite

Anyone who seems to excel beyond their rank is a target, and you should expect that you could be next, not just fear it.

Again, provide some sort of evidence this is the case. Plenty of players have “excelled beyond their ranks” before and not been banned, your friend is not special.

Quoted from Kritzonite

In any civilised democracy with an enlightened justice system, the view is taken that it is better for a hundred criminals to walk free than for one innocent person to be wrongly convicted.

This doctrine is often quoted but is simply a matter of opinion, not fact. Law does not equal justice. The Law is not there to protect you, your friends or your family, but the structure of society as a whole. Even in this day and age, it is often plausible that a criminal will walk free or an innocent man to be convicted if doing otherwise would harm society (see the US Justice System). Even in real life, if a court of law makes a decision, then it is followed whether or it is right or not.

Quoted from Kritzonite

Another principle that is commonly applied to authorities in the real world is that conflict of interest should be absent from their affairs.

This I agree with, but again you have provided no specific examples or evidence that this is not the case with ETF2L.

Quoted from Kritzonite

I’ve heard it stated several times this week by Beavern’s accusers that ETF2L isn’t a democracy

As a community-run league, you play by the rules of whoever runs it. That is not to say they should be able to do whatever they like and it shouldn’t improve, rather that until you put in the effort yourself you do not have a say in how it is operated. It cannot be any simpler than that. The league is only as good as the effort the community puts in.

Quoted from Kritzonite

We then watched through various demos of Beavern, until we found one that matched the ticks noted by the admins.

Finally some facts. This part is all you needed in your argument. If this is the case it is troubling (particularly with d2m’s post as well).

Quoted from Kritzonite

Any rational person should immediately conclude that something extremely dubious took place within the figurative sealed walls of the ACT chambers.

A rational person would not immediately conclude one way or the other. The decision may have been influenced due to Beavern’s friendship with Aven, or they simply may have spotted something the other AC admins didn’t. Without transparency there is no way to conclude either way.

Quoted from Kritzonite

We do know, thanks to gryzor’s previous revelations, that it was at one time as few as two. If that is still the case, it seems a woefully low number required for unanimity when banning a player.

As said above, the job is as good as the manpower is.

Quoted from Kritzonite

It should be clear that at the very least, the ACT team were unduly influenced by their prior familiarity with Beavern, and at worst, they are utterly corrupt and should be removed from their posts instantly.

No, it isn’t clear. All of your points are subjective, and your evidence is no better than the AC team’s until the other AC admins you talked to step forward to give testimony. I’m not saying it is false, and I’m sure you can make it happen, just be aware to an outsider I cannot see any “corruption” in the system at all.

To me, all flaws seem to be based on the lack of manpower rather than a will to “abuse public power, office, or resources by government officials or employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes”. Please tell me how the AC team willfully banned Beavern for personal gain, as it’s quite an accusation you are making there.

Again, let me make clear I agree the current AC system needs a review. However, doing so in a clearly biased post does not gain my support to unban Beavern.

tl;dr: long words don’t make you smart

Last edited by kuma, 13 years ago

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

Suggest one that we can actually get and isn’t shit.

didnt chris make one? surprised he hasnt posted yet tbh
edit: flimmin typos

Last edited by Bonkers, 13 years ago

I think it’s rather obvious that EVEN if the AC team have made a mistake, beavern will not get unbanned.. It’s for the simple fact that if he were to be unbanned, all the real cheaters will want to be unbanned too claiming their bans were a “mistake” by the AC team.

Like I said in many other posts, I don’t know beavern and never seen him play or anything. I do believe people can make mistakes and it would be unfortunate if banning beavern was a mistake, but I don’t think there is a whole lot you can do about it now.

As for what D2M posted I’m shocked to read that the decision was made on only a single demo .. What you want to do as a AC team is ALWAYS gather more than 1 piece of evidence, AT ALL TIMES. … Obviously people posting their opinion and ticks right away is a mistake aswell … it might be a good idea to lock the thread/forum for a certain amount of time and people don’t talk to each other for that period and find some way to post it anonymously. .. If a majority is convinced he cheats, they can discuss ticks and whatnot. (Maybe through a poll?)

Also what the AC team should keep in mind is that a player is ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty (through multiple pieces of evidence). Which means that even if a player is reported it might mean that he’s dodgy or did something dodgy, but it does not automaticly make him a cheater. And 3-4 ticks in a single demo is NEVER enough evidence.

But that’s just my 2 cents.

Quoted from reactioN

[…]

Obviously you don’t know shit.

… reactioN

Quoted from demsii

I think it’s rather obvious that EVEN if the AC team have made a mistake, beavern will not get unbanned.. It’s for the simple fact that if he were to be unbanned, all the real cheaters will want to be unbanned too claiming their bans were a “mistake” by the AC team.

Like I said in many other posts, I don’t know beavern and never seen him play or anything. I do believe people can make mistakes and it would be unfortunate if banning beavern was a mistake, but I don’t think there is a whole lot you can do about it now.

As for what D2M posted I’m shocked to read that the decision was made on only a single demo .. What you want to do as a AC team is ALWAYS gather more than 1 piece of evidence, AT ALL TIMES. … Obviously people posting their opinion and ticks right away is a mistake aswell … it might be a good idea to lock the thread/forum for a certain amount of time and people don’t talk to each other for that period and find some way to post it anonymously. .. If a majority is convinced he cheats, they can discuss ticks and whatnot. (Maybe through a poll?)

Also what the AC team should keep in mind is that a player is ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty (through multiple pieces of evidence). Which means that even if a player is reported it might mean that he’s dodgy or did something dodgy, but it does not automaticly make him a cheater. And 3-4 ticks in a single demo is NEVER enough evidence.

But that’s just my 2 cents.

multiple evidence isn’t necessary, even a 5second demo is enough if it manages to prove cheating beyond a doubt.