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Valve to develop in-game competitive lobby system?
Created 4th June 2013 @ 04:22
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Good on Valve for actually supporting competitive play…
But their whole ‘vote ban items’ system just doesn’t seem viable. They’re better off just allowing all weapons all the time or having some weapons that are banned in every HL game.
Changing the banned weapon-set (through the whole ‘this game these weapons have been voted as banned’) will just confuse and annoy players, especially the average pubber.
Quoted from rytis
[…]
already happened, move along
Stop acting like an internet tough guy. You play div4 6v6, that hardly gives you the right to act as you are. You are accomplishing absolutely nothing in this thread and contributing nothing to a (potentially) very important discussion.
The highlander challenge brought in a ton of players to ETF2L, many of whom no longer play, but lots of these players are now playing in high division 6v6 teams. Whether you like highlander or not is irrelevant, as it serves as a gateway for many players to get in to comp TF2 (including 6v6). This new lobby system may cause another influx of players to highlander leagues, which can only be a good thing for comp TF2 over all.
So please take your utterly stupid opinions elsewhere you idiotic piece of shit.
Quoted from Spike Himself
[…]
A few might.
Don’t forget – the reasons ETF2L ban weapons is community feedback. It is because experience has taught which items should and shouldn’t be in the game.
Valve is going to be receiving exactly such feedback with their system.The end result? I doubt it’ll be much different. You are very much overreacting.
Muuki may be mentally deficient and he may be overreacting somewhat, but he’s still right here. If Valve really wanted to collect data from the community on whitelist choices, that data already exists in league whitelists. While these whitelists are produced based on community feedback, this is still strictly speaking a competitive community (yes even div6 highlander is still “competitive” despite what any obnoxious div4 6v6 professional in this thread has to say), and therefore all the feedback comes from actual competitive play. Pub players jumping in to these lobbies will have a completely different attitude towards unlocks & maps than those of a seasoned highlander or 6s player, or even someone who has play one season in div6 highlander.
What this means is that pub players may influence Valve’s decisions to nerf weapons, regardless of whether they are overpowered in actual competitive play or not. What Muuki is trying to say, which you somehow don’t understand, is that Valve will be influenced by player’s opinions of what is considered over powered in pubs, NOT WHAT IS CONSIDERED OVER POWERED IN COMPETITIVE TF2 ALREADY. This will have a negative impact on comp TF2 whether you agree or not.
Quoted from Fallen
[…]
If 1 person dislikes a weapon and bans it, nothing happens.
If everyone dislikes a weapon and bans it, something will happen because its obviously broken.
No, you’re missing the point. The wrangler is overpowered in pubs, but as the majority of highlander players will tell you, IT IS NOT OP IN HIGHLANDER. That’s the distinction Muuki is making. Pub players will want it nerfed/banned, which will change the already existing highlander format, and not for the better.
—-
Frankly I think the whole matchmaking system is too little too late. Far, far, far too late. Maybe if this system was implemented 2-3 years ago then I would expect something good to come from it, but right now I can only see this being a terrible idea.
Why is the focus always on WEAPONS? The game is so rich on its own, and a good team will destroy an other team regardless of weapons because of TEAMWORK. Team Fortress 2. TEAM Fortress 2. ——> TEAM. <——
Valve keeps adding unlocks to the game – players eventually master a whole arsenal of weapons, without even being near grasping the complexity of the game dynamics. The true beauty of this game is NOT unlocks; it's teamwork, the class based play, and the rich game dynamics.
Come to think of it, I don't even know if this was related, but I felt like saying it.
Quoted from SmitZ
[…]
Stop acting like an internet tough guy. You play div4 6v6, that hardly gives you the right to act as you are. You are accomplishing absolutely nothing in this thread and contributing nothing to a (potentially) very important discussion.
The highlander challenge brought in a ton of players to ETF2L, many of whom no longer play, but lots of these players are now playing in high division 6v6 teams. Whether you like highlander or not is irrelevant, as it serves as a gateway for many players to get in to comp TF2 (including 6v6). This new lobby system may cause another influx of players to highlander leagues, which can only be a good thing for comp TF2 over all.
So please take your utterly stupid opinions elsewhere you idiotic piece of shit.
how is this important, highlander is bad and boring, hopefuly valve will soon realise it.
also a div5 scrub calling out on my skill level, what a joke.
p.s. your insults are a big contribution to this thread sir, please keep going
Quoted from Monkeh
[…]
Huh? The need is to grow the scene. How many players that hadn’t even heard of competitive TF2 would see a new option on their in game menu and click it and have a go?
Playing 6s with no team work, strategy or comms? Yeah that would definitely give people a good idea of what 6s TF2 is about and get people motivated to join a gaming league.
Maybe I’m wrong though.
EDIT: Actually I’ve had a think and I believe I am wrong. In my head I had imagined a built in 6s system to be something like tf2lobby but worse. But if Valve make it better than tf2lobby and add some features like basic training and information it could work.
TF2 isn’t DOTA or LOL where casual players are playing pretty much the same game as the pros, the difference between casual TF2 and competitive 6s TF2 is HUGE and there is a lot to learn. But if Valve implemented some training, maybe some instructional videos to teach the majority of people the basics I think it could work out quite well.
Maybe throw in some advertisements for ETF2L, ESEA and TF.TV and have a system which makes getting into a gaming league easier.. ok I have a lot of ideas in my head now and there are enough words in this thread already so gonna stop typing :D
Last edited by taro,
I think it’s valve, who got actually stagnant. For years we haven’t had any proper bug fixes and balance updates. All we get nowadays is new hats and fixes for hats that got added just a week ago and some promotion for some bullshit majority of the people don’t give a crap about I mean they claim that 6v6 does not appeal to most of the tf2 audience but the garbage they advertise does?
I used to look up for updates and get so hyped when I would see my tf2 downloading something and it was so exiting and enjoyable to discuss new changes and tweaks that made it into the game. Nowadays I don’t even bother to check what got updated so this tells a lot of how valve got lazy during the years. To sum up:
Current tf2 players barely follow TF2 development anymore because nothing surprises them. There are no “sick new weapons or maps/tweaks” for them to see, especially not at the pace of other games. They want to see major updates and tweaks to the game(hint: hats =/=major change) happening once every 2-3 months. All other esport titles allows for this a tad more than the current tf2 setup. Robin: It’s difficult for Valve to get m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶s̶ feedback from comp tf2 so we are just going to satisfy only the pub player base because they provide us sufficient m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶s̶ feedback and it’s easier for us to throw s̶h̶i̶t̶ content in the game and get m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶s̶ immediate response from customers.
Last edited by aura,
Quoted from SmitZ
If Valve really wanted to collect data from the community on whitelist choices, that data already exists in league whitelists. While these whitelists are produced based on community feedback, this is still strictly speaking a competitive community (yes even div6 highlander is still “competitive” despite what any obnoxious div4 6v6 professional in this thread has to say), and therefore all the feedback comes from actual competitive play. Pub players jumping in to these lobbies will have a completely different attitude towards unlocks & maps than those of a seasoned highlander or 6s player, or even someone who has play one season in div6 highlander.
What does competitive mean to you?
If you throw 18 pub players into a lobby that dictates them to play in even teams, consisting each of nine players, under a certain ruleset, and tell them that the only the best team can win, is that not competitive?
These “pub noobs” you speak of, that would under no circumstances allow the wrangler (for example), are they still “pub noobs” after their first competitive game? If they play to win and they know that the wrangler is a strong weapon, like I said before, surely then they will not ban it?
Ok that’s a bit of theorycrafting perhaps, but the point is that Valve will collect statistics. They collect them for a long time, over a huge number of games.
The outcome will not differ (much) from what we in the comp scene already have, because we have made these decisions based on exactly the same experience: Playing competitively.
Wow, I’m struggling to make sense here..
Last edited by Spike Himself,
Quoted from rytis
[…]
how is this important, highlander is bad and boring, hopefuly valve will soon realise it.
also a div5 scrub calling out on my skill level, what a joke.
p.s. your insults are a big contribution to this thread sir, please keep going
Do you not realise that your own opinion on highlander is completely and utterly irrelevant in any discussion on this topic? This thread is not about how little you enjoy a gamemode, it’s about the matchmaking system and how that affects the game. A
div5 scrub? I made no claim to be good at the game in this thread, nor did I insult your “skill level.” All I’m pointing out is that you play in div4 6v6 and div5 highlander. Having only played in these low divisions you are hardly in any position to criticise a gamemode that you’re clearly shit at.
I eagerly await your response. :)
Quoted from Spike Himself
[…]
What does competitive mean to you?
If you throw 18 pub players into a lobby that dictates them to play in even teams, consisting each of nine players, under a certain ruleset, and tell them that the only the best team can win, is that not competitive?
These “pub noobs” you speak of, that would under no circumstances allow the wrangler (for example), are they still “pub noobs” after their first competitive game? If they play to win and they know that the wrangler is a strong weapon, like I said before, surely then they will not ban it?
Ok that’s a bit of theorycrafting perhaps, but the point is that Valve will collect statistics. They collect them for a long time, over a huge number of games.
The outcome will not differ (much) from what we in the comp scene already have, because we have made these decisions based on exactly the same experience: Playing competitively.
Wow, I’m struggling to make sense here..
I’d just like to point out I never used the term “pub noobs.” If you’re going to quote me at least do so with some accuracy.
To answer your question, what I consider “competitive” is being in a team that competes in a league. I wouldn’t consider anyone who plays in these matchmaking games any more of a “competitive player” than a casual TF2lobby player.
And maybe you’re right, but from your other comments replying to Muuki it seemed like you didn’t even understand what he was saying.
Last edited by SmitZ,
Quoted from SmitZ
[…]
Stop acting like an internet tough guy. You play div4 6v6, that hardly gives you the right to act as you are. You are accomplishing absolutely nothing in this thread and contributing nothing to a (potentially) very important discussion.
The highlander challenge brought in a ton of players to ETF2L, many of whom no longer play, but lots of these players are now playing in high division 6v6 teams. Whether you like highlander or not is irrelevant, as it serves as a gateway for many players to get in to comp TF2 (including 6v6). This new lobby system may cause another influx of players to highlander leagues, which can only be a good thing for comp TF2 over all.
So please take your utterly stupid opinions elsewhere you idiotic piece of shit.
[…]
Muuki may be mentally deficient and he may be overreacting somewhat, but he’s still right here. If Valve really wanted to collect data from the community on whitelist choices, that data already exists in league whitelists. While these whitelists are produced based on community feedback, this is still strictly speaking a competitive community (yes even div6 highlander is still “competitive” despite what any obnoxious div4 6v6 professional in this thread has to say), and therefore all the feedback comes from actual competitive play. Pub players jumping in to these lobbies will have a completely different attitude towards unlocks & maps than those of a seasoned highlander or 6s player, or even someone who has play one season in div6 highlander.
What this means is that pub players may influence Valve’s decisions to nerf weapons, regardless of whether they are overpowered in actual competitive play or not. What Muuki is trying to say, which you somehow don’t understand, is that Valve will be influenced by player’s opinions of what is considered over powered in pubs, NOT WHAT IS CONSIDERED OVER POWERED IN COMPETITIVE TF2 ALREADY. This will have a negative impact on comp TF2 whether you agree or not.
[…]
No, you’re missing the point. The wrangler is overpowered in pubs, but as the majority of highlander players will tell you, IT IS NOT OP IN HIGHLANDER. That’s the distinction Muuki is making. Pub players will want it nerfed/banned, which will change the already existing highlander format, and not for the better.
—-
Frankly I think the whole matchmaking system is too little too late. Far, far, far too late. Maybe if this system was implemented 2-3 years ago then I would expect something good to come from it, but right now I can only see this being a terrible idea.
There is very little data in league whitelists, do you even know what data is? The only information you can find in the whitelists is what items are banned and which items are allowed. Unfortunately, these whitelists aren’t created by god, so just because an item is banned in a league doesn’t mean it is for a good reason. With more data (logs, amount of times a weapon has been banned, comparison between logs where a weapon was banned and a weapon was not), you can make a more informed rebalancing decision.
Of course people who use the in-game lobby system regularily won’t ban items that are overpowered in pubs, they will ban weapons that are overpowered/annoying in comp. Yes, sometimes weapons that are not really overpowered will get banned, but that will be such a small fraction compared to bans on weapons that really are overpowered/annoying.
The wrangler being nerfed/banned is for the better of the highlander format. Such a boring unlock, that only serves to slow down the game and lower the skill ceiling considerably, especially for engineers. You don’t even need to hold properly, one screwup for the attacking team will amend for tens of screwups for a defending team who is using the wrangler. Imagine a match without the wrangler; it will be much harder for the defending team to defend, which will result in a faster pace, which will result in a higher skill ceiling. Simple as that, ban the wrangler and highlander will be much more fun to play. I might actually test out this lobby system. :D
Quoted from Ace
Why is the focus always on WEAPONS? The game is so rich on its own, and a good team will destroy an other team regardless of weapons because of TEAMWORK. Team Fortress 2. TEAM Fortress 2. ——> TEAM. <——
Valve keeps adding unlocks to the game – players eventually master a whole arsenal of weapons, without even being near grasping the complexity of the game dynamics. The true beauty of this game is NOT unlocks; it's teamwork, the class based play, and the rich game dynamics.Come to think of it, I don't even know if this was related, but I felt like saying it.
DAH TRUTH
Quoted from ondkaja
[…]
The wrangler being nerfed/banned is for the better of the highlander format. Such a boring unlock, that only serves to slow down the game and lower the skill ceiling considerably, especially for engineers.
So what you’re trying to say is that if you take away the engineer’s ability to aim, and let his sentry aim for him, that his “skill ceiling” is higher? Are you fucking high right now?
Quoted from SmitZ
[…]
So what you’re trying to say is that if you take away the engineer’s ability to aim, and let his sentry aim for him, that his “skill ceiling” is higher? Are you fucking high right now?
You do realise that the wrangler has aim-assist? :D
Quoted from ondkaja
[…]
You do realise that the wrangler has aim-assist? :D
Yes but if you take it away, the engineer doesn’t have to aim the sentry at all. Your previous statement implies that the engineer class takes more skill without any ability to aim a sentry. That is simply wrong regardless of aim assist.
Last edited by SmitZ,
Quoted from SmitZ
[…]
Yes but if you take it away, the engineer doesn’t have to aim the sentry at all. Your previous statement implies that the engineer class takes more skill without any ability to aim a sentry. That is simply wrong regardless of aim assist.
You will never get a kill with the sentry unless you put it in a sneaky position (or if you’re playing against retards), and keeping the sentry alive will be MUCH harder. That’s where the skill ceiling increases. Right now, the skill ceiling with the wrangler is so low you have to crawl.
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