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Quoted from slate

@crashsite

first up, I do not really care about the unlocks rules.
I do like how you present your arguements and agree with most of them, but I’m kinda bored atm and thought I’d state the few I don’t completly agree with.

[…]

I’d argue that you cannot dodge hitscan and that getting away from a scout, equalizer or not, is still their fault.

[…]

I wouldn’t say taking damage as solly always equals failure. Actually I’d say that the in the vast majority of encounters with opponents you have absolutely no way to avoid taking damage, especially solly vs solly. Even if you have hight advantage, get jumped and triple airshot him, you will take some splash damage from him.

About the rollout on badlands, while I agree that “the perfect” badlands rollout as solly is not easy, nailing it, will result in you waiting on wooden bridge for your medic to catch up. Although I do agree that getting both sollys on 300 is a lot easier with the equalizer.

In general I’d prefer the arguements to be more about the effects on the game instead of comparing it to vanilla.

for example the equalizer:

most arguements are: You get out of situations, you shouldn’t get out of. hence it’s broken.

I’d like: You get out of situations, you shouldn’t get out of, here is why that is detrimental to the game.

Yay, someone else who is bored.

First you can dodge hitscan, not by seeing it and moving out the way, but my erratic movement, the same way that medics can dodge it. This normally only works close up, but you can make the shots miss, more speed makes this easier.

Taking damage is expect that for building uber is always a bad thing. Just because it is unavoidable doesn’t mean that is good. In every situation you would prefer to take no damage, self inflicted or otherwise. Even if you are catching spam for your medic, it is still not a good thing, as ideally neither of you would take damage, what you are doing is choosing the lesser of the two evils, the pocket taking damage instead of the medic.

As for the rollouts, it is incrediably hard to get everyone to mid at the perfect amount of health, including scout. I would be willing to bet that it has never been done. With Equalizer you can consistently get both sollys and scouts to mid fully buffed. Showing the difference in skill.

I thought most of my arguments were talking about the effects on the game, but the problem is that the game also includes Vanilla, so it is very hard not to compare them.

But I will give it a try for two unlocks:

Equalizer:

It rewards taking damage, meaning that the skills such as positioning and knowing not to overextend are lost, as you can freely do them and get away with a lot less punishment that you would otherwise get. This has the potenital to mean that either a point gets taken when somene should have died, but instead they get health and come back in or simply you are unable to push, as what should have been a one man advantage is equal, as a solly got out.

Bonk!:

It basically can shut down any push. If the other team ubers in, simply bonking your best DM scout behind means that they have to send 2 people back, or risk a backcap, which can lose a round. Since there is no real way to defend against, as a god scout will simply surf any attemps to juggle him as roamer, it makes pushing very hard. On top of that there are certain exploits, such as blocking the other team in BL house that mean it is broken.

Quoted from slate

About the equalizer, fair points and I agree, but (maybe I’m biased as soldier)

CrashSite plays roamer :)

Quoted from Admirable

Alternatively we could try getting fucking good at a time when the level of play is at an all time low.

From what I am reading here you think you could kill more or survive easier with unlock X when really you just need to learn some core skills like positioning and timing. Every single one of these unlocks is a crutch for bad play.

The end game has not been reached for vanilla by a long shot, level up your game bros…

WTF Jarate? I’m going to swap my smg that is never used for mini crits for my entire team every 30 seconds. Jesus man.

+1

Quoted from CrashSite

[…]

Hildreth used to rage at me for using equalizer too much, also got mad when I go out after killing medic and overextending like a boss <3

To be fair guish like…

One day when you finally ditched the equalizer, switched the pocket soldier and used actual gamesense and intelligence and played like…like…. a player with a brain. LTG went from Low Div 4 to solid Div 3 in like a few weeks.

And he owes it all to ditching his “get out of jail free card” that was that shit OP stick.

Quoted from envy

[…]
Again. Never said Bonk is good. Secondly, we are forgetting about Gunboats and BB, which I am trying to defend more than other unlocks, and you seem to ignore them, because they are highly balanced and will add a lot of stuff to the game you personally don’t like.
Yup, no discussion, “it’s broken, shut up”.
ETF2L rules are created over the game, while the game itself have a lot of varies rules which may be made. A lot of leagues play with much more amount of unlocks than I suggest and only on ETF2L people think vanilla makes the game more “skilled”. If I say vanilla rollout is bullshit and may be made with less amount of idiotic moves, it’s my vision of rules, with which you may agree or disagree.
You seem to imply a lot what I didn’t imply. But in this one you are partly right: only demo is rollout is pain in the ass. So to say, only good timing, positioning and tactic decisions I consider as things which requires a lot of experience and skill. Rollouts are close to dm. And isn’t it suppression on medic on mid and pushes is highly greater than on rollouts?
Typical debate about Equalizer: it’s, broken; nobody can kill “scout on 20hp with melee”; solly should die if he took 150 damage; bullshit damage output; enjoy vanilla or fuck off.

well as far as I am concerned, earlier you guys spoke about idiotic bombing and skill ceilings, and about changing the role of the class. two things that imo is why we don’t have those two unlocks allowed. From my perspective we have reasons why not to allow them, and there’s no reason to bring the same argument up again.

please, continue telling us how balanced the equaliser is

Quoted from envy

[…]
Again. Never said Bonk is good. Secondly, we are forgetting about Gunboats and BB, which I am trying to defend more than other unlocks, and you seem to ignore them, because they are highly balanced and will add a lot of stuff to the game you personally don’t like.
Yup, no discussion, “it’s broken, shut up”.
ETF2L rules are created over the game, while the game itself have a lot of varies rules which may be made. A lot of leagues play with much more amount of unlocks than I suggest and only on ETF2L people think vanilla makes the game more “skilled”. If I say vanilla rollout is bullshit and may be made with less amount of idiotic moves, it’s my vision of rules, with which you may agree or disagree.
You seem to imply a lot what I didn’t imply. But in this one you are partly right: only demo is rollout is pain in the ass. So to say, only good timing, positioning and tactic decisions I consider as things which requires a lot of experience and skill. Rollouts are close to dm. And isn’t it suppression on medic on mid and pushes is highly greater than on rollouts?
Typical debate about Equalizer: it’s, broken; nobody can kill “scout on 20hp with melee”; solly should die if he took 150 damage; bullshit damage output; enjoy vanilla or fuck off.
Edit: so, yeah, there one more problem, people tend to treat unlocks like some Wunderwaffe, thus a lot of idiotic moves made due to them.

Ok the gunboats and the Boston Basher. Deal:

So Gunboats, they make bombing much easier, they aren’t actually OP, they just reduce the skill required to perform a task. This means it is easier to force the medic even for a bad solly. That means there is no distinction between a good roamer and a great roamer. It also is more frustrating to play against, as someone who uses the gunboats will be more likely to only bomb, this provides for less tactical play, thus making the skill of the scene lower.

BB:

Allowing scouts to build means that sollys don’t have to be nearly as careful. Instead of losing uber advantage when both sollys go down you can maintain it. This again lowers the skill, as people would be less insensitivity for actually working as a team and getting picks, instead of just double bombing sollys, which will almost always force the medic. Instead of tactical play, it would develop into a bombing meta, which is uninteresting.

As for what the rest of what you said, I didn’t understand a god damn word.

Quoted from CrashSite

[…]
This means it is easier to force the medic even for a bad solly.

It also is more frustrating to play against, as someone who uses the gunboats will be more likely to only bomb, this provides for less tactical play, thus making the skill of the scene lower.

Instead of losing uber advantage when both sollys go down you can maintain it. This again lowers the skill, as people would be less insensitivity for actually working as a team and getting picks, instead of just double bombing sollys, which will almost always force the medic. Instead of tactical play, it would develop into a bombing meta, which is uninteresting.

As for what the rest of what you said, I didn’t understand a god damn word.

This means it’s harder to protect your medic. Isn’t it’s you who is talking about skill?

“Tactical” you mean “stalemating”? I am fully okay with this. Maybe it’s not interesting to watch such round-in-1.5-minutes games, but it’s really great and tensely to play. I don’t point at 5-0 games, but at 5-5 or more, when both teams score rounds one after another with such a high speed.

You keep seeing it as losing “uber advantage”. I see it as decreasing value of uber. In what fast-paced gameplay needed. Yes, because of possible double bombing soldiers you will have to push as fast as possible or be even more careful, smart and dm skilled to prevent it. Skill increased? Check. Speed increased? Check. Uninteresting? Jesus Christ, it’s not a checkmates to play like a turtles.

Pity, I thought English is your native language. Maybe you’ll learn Russian in this case?