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ETF2L Season 16 Map Pool - Ideas
Created 30th August 2013 @ 12:37
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Quoted from JackyLegs
AGAIN I SAY IT:
WHY TEST OLD MAPS THAT FAILED AND WERE PROVEN TO BE BAD?!
WHEN YOU CAN TEST NEW MAPS AND CHECK OUT IF THEY’RE ACTUALLY GOOD?!
WE GAVE CP_WELL, CP_FREIGHT, CP_EVERYOLDMAPTHATWASPLAYED A CHANCE, AND THEY DIDN’T WORK, HOW ABOUT TESTING NEW MAPS??
READ THE 1ST PAGE AND CHECK OUT MAPS THAT CAN ACTUALLY WORK
Don’t make cups for old maps, make cups for new maps!
What’s the point of being a map maker when all people want are old maps?P.S: cp_sunshine looks has huge potential imo, however since it’s in his alpha stages, that map will need to be improved, fixed and done relaly fast which seems unlikely.
Shit he used bold and caps lock this guy means business.
Quoted from rytis
[…]
can you give an example then?
I asked a question and didn’t make a statement. I’ve been quiet in these threads before because I hadn’t played the maps; which is why I’m asking those questions in the first place.
Anyway, an example…from what I’ve seen, when it comes to Gravelpit, people complained about Sentries being too easy to protect (in addition to a possibility of there being 2). I don’t know if this was tried in other leagues, but wouldn’t the Direct Hit solve a large part of that problem?
In any case, yes. New maps over old maps; I just thought you could revive an old map as well and see it in a new light.
Last edited by accless,
Quoted from accless
[…]
I asked a question and didn’t make a statement. I’ve been quiet in these threads before because I hadn’t played the maps; which is why I’m asking those questions in the first place.
Anyway, an example…from what I’ve seen, when it comes to Gravelpit, people complained about Sentries being too easy to protect (in addition to a possibility of there being 2). I don’t know if this was tried in other leagues, but wouldn’t the Direct Hit solve a large part of that problem?In any case, yes. New maps over old maps; I just thought you could revive an old map as well and see it in a new light.
Gravelpit is the only example you may be right, but on every other map I can think of new unlocks wont make pushes easier/more difficult/less sniper friendly etc.. without unbalancing the game on other aspects.
Also remember that once ETF2L used to have almost every weapon allowed and map like fastlane/freight were there already (if I remember right, I think S10 has been the first season Vanilla + medlocks since new weapons had been added to the game, and that is the first season I have played) and they got removed.
I agree with those saying that instead of having old maps back in we should instead focus on trying new ones by means of one-night-cups or whatever, but they usually dont get much support especially from high divs.
It is fun and gives everyone the opportunity to try something different, yet it can be useful to improve/differentiate the mappool.
Last edited by Leif,
we should try new maps and please stop with gravelpit. It was horrible and it will stay horrible if we bring it back to the pool
If we want more variety in the map pool then koth is the way to go, at the moment people rarely scrim viaduct because it’s the only one we play, if there are more in the pool then it will get played outside of the viaduct weeks
Quoted from accless
[…]
I asked a question and didn’t make a statement. I’ve been quiet in these threads before because I hadn’t played the maps; which is why I’m asking those questions in the first place.
Anyway, an example…from what I’ve seen, when it comes to Gravelpit, people complained about Sentries being too easy to protect (in addition to a possibility of there being 2). I don’t know if this was tried in other leagues, but wouldn’t the Direct Hit solve a large part of that problem?In any case, yes. New maps over old maps; I just thought you could revive an old map as well and see it in a new light.
ESEA allows the direct hit, they just voted gpit out.
Last edited by Droidster,
Quoted from accless
[…]
In any case, yes. New maps over old maps; I just thought you could revive an old map as well and see it in a new light.
I think some are resentful towards unlock comments partly because they see it as distracting from map making.
Maps are half a game’s gameplay, and are normally the only thing that’s up to the community. But TF2’s unlocks create this “catalogue & chequebook engineering” situation that’s also left up to the community thanks to black/whitelists. Choosing is easier than creating or reworking, in fact it’s so easy to toggle these choices on & off that everyone wants to get involved and give input because it’s just so easy to implement. What’s more, with all these old maps lying about, people start doing the same with them.
I’m not saying you are or aren’t onto something, but you’re proposal is just more input about mix-and-match choices, rather than putting time, effort and thought into the specifics of finding and analysing problems, then designing and implementing new solutions. “Design by trial and error is not good practice”, my lab professor reminded me this year.
Off-topic: I wonder what Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert) would make of the compTF2 community/situation….
Last edited by Smyther,
The main complaints about freight were a boring middle, especially for soldiers, and a too easy to turtle last. I can see gunboats, for example, helping to alleviate both of those. Maybe accless and smyther have a point.
Last edited by Monkeh,
Quoted from Smyther
[…]
I think some are resentful towards unlock comments partly because they see it as distracting from map making.Maps are half a game’s gameplay, and are normally the only thing that’s up to the community. But TF2’s unlocks create this “catalogue & chequebook engineering” situation that’s also left up to the community thanks to black/whitelists. Choosing is easier than creating or reworking, in fact it’s so easy to toggle these choices on & off that everyone wants to get involved and give input because it’s just so easy to implement. What’s more, with all these old maps lying about, people start doing the same with them.
I’m not saying you are or aren’t onto something, but you’re proposal is just more input about mix-and-match choices, rather than putting time, effort and thought into the specifics of finding and analysing problems, then designing and implementing new solutions. “Design by trial and error is not good practice”, my lab professor reminded me this year.
Off-topic: I wonder what Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert) would make of the compTF2 community/situation….
I do agree with you. We’d need a better way of promoting these new maps, though. People don’t really play them on their own. A cup system would be great but that is hard to organise :/
Also, that quote by your professor really irks me. How else are you supposed to design something but through trial and error?
Might just be some context missing.
Trial and error implies blindly guessing, feeding the result into a simple algorithm, then making an adjustment according to a simple calculation and repeating until you’re satisfied. It’s crude.
Proper design involves taking a good look at what you have, the situation you in, and the result you want, then thinking hard about how to proceed in the most efficient and effective manner, which will require a lot of compromising, problem solving and repeatedly asking “Will it work?”.
Both involve learning from what doesn’t work, both can stop at “good enough” rather than “perfection”, but it’s the crudeness and forethought in the method.
It can be tempting to just “try everything with everything” when you’re given a list of check-boxes, which is very scientific, focusing all effort on gathering data. But that’s a lot more time and work than thinking things through, and assumes (sometimes fatally*) that what you want is in the check-boxes**. It just isn’t a healthy kind of thinking.
* Fatally in the sense that it can cause your project to fail/die.
** i.e. I think TF2 needs a vanilla uber that builds much faster, but that isn’t in our list of check-boxes, and if we confined ourselves to that list, we’d never think to look at that. Go watch day9’s “eliminating assumptions” lecture for more on this.
Last edited by Smyther,
Isn’t it the case that good, unknown 6v6 maps don’t exist, rather than we’re just not playing them? STAR_ held a competition on tf2maps.net looking for highlander koth maps, the winner was koth_arctic. I’d add a couple of hundred quid to a prize fund for 6v6 5cp maps.
Quoted from fraac
Isn’t it the case that good, unknown 6v6 maps don’t exist, rather than we’re just not playing them? STAR_ held a competition on tf2maps.net looking for highlander koth maps, the winner was koth_arctic. I’d add a couple of hundred quid to a prize fund for 6v6 5cp maps.
Moneybags Fraac has arrived
Quoted from fraac
Isn’t it the case that good, unknown 6v6 maps don’t exist, rather than we’re just not playing them? STAR_ held a competition on tf2maps.net looking for highlander koth maps, the winner was koth_arctic. I’d add a couple of hundred quid to a prize fund for 6v6 5cp maps.
Get in talks with people! Organise! I’m pretty sure this will spur quite a few map makers.
Quoted from Smyther
Trial and error implies blindly guessing, feeding the result into a simple algorithm, then making an adjustment according to a simple calculation and repeating until you’re satisfied. It’s crude.
Now I get it. Though I assume we wouldn’t have blindly taken a random amount of unlocks, thrown them in the mix and see what happens. Analysis first, though then. But screw all that. New maps!
How about you’d fund a cup for new maps in ETF2L like all the ones we suggested?
That’d be a cool idea and also a chance to play new maps such as:
cp_metalworks
cp_derecho (looks like alot of potential to it)
koth_canopy
koth_coalplant (please this)
cp_ediface
These maps in one cup of 5 rounds, each round bo3 and will contain only the new maps we choose.
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