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Highlander Season 19 Preseason Cup Feedback

Created 30th June 2019 @ 18:55

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STiNGHAN

inv

badwater_pro won’t fix problems of badwater. sure, v12 or wrangler would make easier 1st and 3rd point but the last point is still broken. Even without wrangler we couldn’t push Feila for 5-6 mins? I know I know, Vigil or other maps are just worse. If we want to ban “broken” fos, why don’t we replace badwater? If you want to make double 5cp&koth maps, don’t take process. Propaganda is more like gullywash. 5cp but still might be enjoyable. Sadly, in that case warmtic would be removed but whatever I guess. I would remove product ( map even too small for 6s ) and as sniper main I can tell you, its cancer map

Clark

SDCK

Quoted from clean carp

I agree that engi will feel even more useless, but at least the lack of responsibility would allow for some interesting plays sometimes.

Okay, see, this right here is the perfect example of the kind of mentality that’s been slowly killing highlander ever since the very first Community Challenge in 2011. “I agree that engi will feel even more useless” – that’s it. That’s where this sentence should end. Period.

Changing the meta just for the sake of changing the meta because the game mode feels “stale” or “boring” is counterproductive. Before one overthrows the system one should come up with a better alternative and there’s no alternative to the Wrangler. If there’s ever one then it’s a whole different conversation.

I’ll repeat what I’ve already said before: if it gets banned the meta for engie won’t simply change – it will disappear into thin air essentially killing engie as a class on payload maps.

But, hey, at least you’ll get a new class – a much slower scout that has a 50hp friend. How cool! Will really allow for “some interesting plays sometimes”, like putting a tele exit in-behind enemy lines or building a mini in a corner that will do 20 damage before it gets taken down.

Revolutionary.

clean carp

6
BOPIS

Engie mains ferociously defending the weapon that makes a mini tank an absurd amount of damage xD

Adje

:)

Not really sure why people associate the Wrangler ban with ‘fixing Badwater’? It wasn’t even originally added into the map pool for this Preseason Cup until enough people complained about the lack of a payload map lol.

Also Vigil is hardly an untested map, in fact ETF2L was probably the first league to even test out the map about 6-7 seasons ago and I’ve seen it in preseason cups at least two times now. It typically got good feedback but most people wanted to keep Badwater instead back then. It’s being played in just about every other HL league as well, including UGC and NA RGL HL. Just because you’re not scrimming Vigil every week as of now doesn’t mean the map is ‘untested’. Also a map being a ‘staple’ is literally a non-argument for keeping it. In 6s there are plenty of cases of maps that are ‘staples’ not being played for a season just for a breath of fresh air or because of several problems with the flow of the map (ex. Badlands last with the ~2s captime).

NA has ditched Badwater years ago and has never looked back. I’m not sure why people are so reluctant on keeping Badwater in.

I’d rather play something similar to Gully if we really need another 5cp map. Process is just garbage for HL and while I’m not a big fan of Gully either, it honestly doesn’t have any major problems apart from how it promotes stalemates when people are a round up and are being held on last, cause people will either wait out the timer for another shot at the mid or fight with a player disadvantage in big door implying you don’t want to get back capped during your attempt to push out. I haven’t played Propaganda so I don’t know how it matches up against Process. I kinda liked Vanguard when I played it a couple of times in HL, but I’m pretty sure I’ll be in the minority there.

clean carp

6
BOPIS

Banning wrangler won’t fix badwater, but it’s still such an annoying weapon and imo we should remove both from the next season, to see how it works.

JackyLegs

4SKINGS
SDCK

dont think badwater needs fixing, you could try pro version but really it is the best option we got right now
Quoted from Adje

Also Vigil is hardly an untested map
It’s being played in just about every other HL league as well, including UGC and NA RGL HL.

vigil is untested as it didnt change enough to be worth testing AGAIN, it was tested in the preseason cup of last season and it was awful, you use a point that RGL and UGC have it as well, means we need to do it as well, as if we need NA to tell us whats good or not, if we’d use that argument why stop at vigil?

Quoted from Adje

NA has ditched Badwater years ago and has never looked back. I’m not sure why people are so reluctant on keeping Badwater in.

you then say it was ditched by NA years ago, what are you even on about? it was played last season in UGC, either you’re misinformed or just really struggle on badwater to deem it worthy of removing it
yes theres a reason its in the pool for 18 seasons straight, because its good, no other map lasted this long in the pool, suddenly we need to follow sigafoo’s decisions in RGL
Quoted from Adje

in fact ETF2L was probably the first league to even test out the map about 6-7 seasons ago

next you say ETF2L was the first to play it 6-7 seasons ago which is just a lie, only been tried in pre-season cups (multiple times) and deemed bad, never made the cut, maybe means something?
you post in the preseason cup thread your thoughts on maps that weren’t tested in the cup, and never played in an ETF2L season before you’re kind of hijacking the conversation towards a new map that nobody asked for to even try in the cup

Quoted from Adje

In 6s there are plenty of cases of maps that are ‘staples’ not being played for a season just for a breath of fresh air or because of several problems with the flow of the map

then you take examples of 6s where etf2l removed badlands was a “breath of fresh air” which really never held more than a season or two after realizing alternatives were worse and now you look and all the “staple” maps are back right where they were, sure they got pro versions now which im not against, as long as the pro version fixes more rather than changes

we need to strive to have a balanced map pool, whether it be process or propaganda doesnt matter, as long as we get 2 5cp, 2 pl, 2 koth, 1 a/d


Last edited by JackyLegs,

FTH

pizza

im not gonna read the angry keyboard warriors feedback and im gonna make it short and simple, the wrangler has been really good aka overpowered where it needs effort to destroy the god damn 700 hp sentry valve nerfed the weapon but in a shitty way as usual because they only care about pubbers feedback or someshit and i mean the point is, if u want to use the wrangler, tell valve to nerf it, ofc thats an option that goes in the trash right away because the tf2 dev “team” is made out of one dude who is a brony and sits in a dark room beating it to horse ass while the game is in chaos, or the other option is to ban it because its broken and whitelists are made to prevent using broken weapons and some other weird stuff idk, 2nd option is to just ban it, obviously that what i think should happen valve wont fix any weapon in this game anymore, they dont care and yeah this is not short as i said nice thanks for reading my feedback :DDDDDDDDDDD:D:DD

Adje

:)

If your definition of ‘testing’ means running it in a full season, how do you expect new maps to ever make it into the pool? How do you expect map makers to ever be able to create a map that is good enough to actually have it up to standard with the so called ‘staple’ maps?

Vigil was tested in the S12 Preseason Cup and the map maker made a thread on it about three years ago on this very forum. Last posted two months ago, what do you mean nothing has changed since then, the map gets actively updated and if you had any problems with Vigil when you tried it out in the cup maybe you should direct those at the map developer since you actually have that option with community maps that are still being worked on. And if a map has been played in other leagues for several seasons by now, I’m pretty sure that qualifies as tested, at least in my book. Also there’s several people suggesting Vigil over Badwater, but nice singling me out because I didn’t play the cup. I definitely can’t speak about a map I’ve played for like seven seasons in this league, right? Sure, I strongly dislike the map and I’m definitely not hiding it under tables, but don’t call me a liar because your definition of ‘tested’ differs from mine.
http://etf2l.org/forum/maps/topic-33499/page-1/

Quoted from sun

also a replacement of badwater with something like vigil can significantly improve the map pool

Quoted from STiNGHAN

even banning wrangler doesn’t help with badwater. can we just ban this map and get vigil or whatever? its too aids.

Quoted from Barthiz

I would really like to see a replacement for badwater, I would assume the wrangler was banned for the most part to “fix” or to make badwater “better” then not really. The map itself is just bleh imo, I’d rather want to see Vigil or something like that.

Quoted from Polarium

just remove badwater already, its a terrible map in every aspect, replace it with borneo/vigil

You’re right that it hasn’t been ‘years’ since Badwater has been played and that’s my bad cause I haven’t played UGC last season, however if you check the map history of UGC Badwater gets played far less often and it being present in the map pool is more of an exception than the norm, just to try out one of those ‘pro’ versions that end up being just as bad or even worse than the original. Which means the last several seasons it was played were S27, S24, S21 and S18 (which was like, three years ago?). Ask any NA RGL Invite player whether they would prefer playing Badwater over Vigil and the majority will agree they never want to touch Badwater again.
https://www.ugcleague.com/maplist_tf2h.cfm

The main reason Badlands made it in again is because the cap time on last actually got changed due to a pro version. But the difference is that the pro version of Badlands actually tackles a lot of its issues, while every Badwater Pro version just ends up taking away a lot of the things that are solid about the map, like adding a dumb staircase on last to spiral or some shit. That’s why I’m not advocating for a pro version and that’s probably also the reason that the pro version hasn’t made it in last season when there was a vote for it. If there is a pro version that adds a forward spawn after capping 2nd and mainly focuses on reworking the last point, I’d be up to play it, but as far as I know there is none that does those things without doing weird things like adding an extra platform to walk around the house on 3rd or adding a fence somewhere for no particular reason.


Last edited by Adje,

JackyLegs

4SKINGS
SDCK

Quoted from Adje

but don’t call me a liar because your definition of ‘tested’ differs from mine.

called you lying as I quoted you saying what you’ve said yourself, i didnt even argue what your definition of tested is, i just explained mine as you didnt understand what i meant by calling it untested
Quoted from Adje

in fact ETF2L was probably the first league to even test out the map about 6-7 seasons ago

it never was in any season, just pre season cups
Quoted from Adje

If your definition of ‘testing’ means running it in a full season, how do you expect new maps to ever make it into the pool? How do you expect map makers to ever be able to create a map that is good enough to actually have it up to standard with the so called ‘staple’ maps?

maps should be played before in pre season cups and decided whether or not to go in, didnt you read me saying adding prop would be a good idea? we playtested it, it played ok and a 5cp map is what we need, now its time to see it in an actual season, see if it sticks, see if it fits when teams practice it and play it seriously, then decide the future of it
unfortunate for vigil it just wasnt good enough to replace a much more polished map

Quoted from Adje

what do you mean nothing has changed since then, the map gets actively updated and if you had any problems with Vigil when you tried it out in the cup maybe you should direct those at the map developer since you actually have that option with community maps that are still being worked on

the map wasnt in the season nor did i think it will be so how am i going to give feedback on a map based on ive played lite once and didnt even enjoy any part of it?
i didnt think the map was good enough to replace any of the current/back then payload maps we were playing, we already had enough choices to work with
the same cant be said by you though, you’ve played badwater ever since you started, hope you directed all feedback to the pro version maker to improve a map being actively played in the league youve been playing for the past 3 years

Quoted from Adje

And if a map has been played in other leagues for several seasons by now, I’m pretty sure that qualifies as tested, at least in my book.

UGC had different maps for years, a lot never made ETF2L, UGC played ramjam, swiftwater etc, never made ETF2L, theres a reason tested maps on other leagues dont get auto qualified to be called “proven” maps to just automatically get in to other leagues, you need the cups to test them, how many more cups do we need to test vigil? when do you give a shot to others?

Quoted from Adje

Also there’s several people suggesting Vigil over Badwater, but nice singling me out because I didn’t play the cup

i singled you out because you spread misinformation and spoke the most about it, own it, dont point to others

Gladiu

KorWIN

Quoted from JackyLegs

stop relying on feedback threads, start doing your job as an admin and push for active questioning of prem leaders for their opinions on the subjects, maybe try and get them to meeting like global whitelist 6s does

I’ll leave it here becouse thats what should be done. Even valve looked at prem 6s to see whats op (razorback, parachute) and they changed it. I dont think ive seen a prem match where wrangler was broken (not since sigafoo safe was patched) or straight up unfair to fight against. I dont play prem tho so you should prolly ask smart prem people like jackylegs clark or rambosaur.

Maps are fine tho, i still dont understand why v12 wasnt played but clearcut seems fun.

Cnoz

800dpm
pizza

JackyLegs shut up you know i’m better than you

Adje

:)

I’ve literally explained what I perceive as ‘tested’ and you still ignore that I’ve said I meant the Preseason Cup before S12. Your misinterpretation of what I said is my “lie”, which is why I compared your definition with mine. I’m just using seasons as a time reference because that’s easier for me than saying “x years ago” because the season formatting has changed to like 3 annual seasons instead of 2 so it’s easier to do the math for me. Back then the map was not good enough but when it got tested again in S18 a lot of the problems with it were solved. I should know because I participated in that preseason cup in S12: the last was absolutely atrocious back then and it’s really come a long way since then.

Just because you didn’t like it doesn’t mean everyone hates Vigil. I feel like that’s pretty much what your main argument is, that people disliked Vigil back then and didn’t want it. A lot of people were very positive about it post-cup however. If you look at last season’s feedback thread several people said the map had potential and could be a viable replacement for Badwater. Now people are repeating said sentiment after wrangerless Badwater got tested. Yes it’s a feedback thread, of course there will probably be a case of the vocal minority on both ends hence why a vote is in order, or maybe one of those prem illuminati meetings that admins hold with leaders like you’ve suggested earlier because an overall player vote does not necessarily represent what the top teams think. This has been done in the past to some extent though as far as I know, I remember getting asked about my opinion on the maps one or two seasons ago by one of the admins, so if they didn’t contact you back then I’m not sure what’s up with that.

I’ll definitely share my feedback with the creator of Badwater Pro who probably isn’t active anymore in his four years old feedback thread on ETF2L. Thanks but no thanks. But hey, let me know if he comes back and I’ll definitely take you up on that :)

I write three lines more text and you destructure my entire post by conveniently only talking about whatever you want to talk about in a random order. You also implied I am advocating to get Badwater removed because I struggle on the map and called me a liar/spreader of misinformation while I’ve clarified what I meant with ‘not played in years in UGC’ and ‘~6 seasons ago’ in my previous post. It kinda feels like you’re playing on the man right now, although that is probably not your intention.

The rest of what I read essentially boils down to ‘why should we do what RGL/UGC/NA’ does’ and the answer is that we shouldn’t necessarily copy what they do. I just believe that in this particular instance they were right in making their decision and switching to Vigil seems a lot better than switching to a map like Ramjam that hasn’t changed in x amount of years without active developers and hasn’t fixed any of the problems it had.

Nightmare

These discussions are always very interesting to watch. Especially because the unlocks being tested during the pre-season cups are always targeted at a specific class. The specific class does not benefit from the ban, yet the majority does. “A weapon that allows you to get a tank with just the click of a button”. Sounds oddly familair like the dead ringer ban discussion a couple of years ago. Now it’s the engie mains defending themselves because they’ll be limited to a single playstyle, just how the spy mains were defending themselves because they’ll be limited to a single playstyle.

Everytime a weapon gets banned during the preseason cup people instantly jump on the bandwagon and all agree that it’s bad, just for the sake of their own gameplay improving. Like, I’ve never heard anyone ever complain about the ambassador being broken, then Valve brings up the idea of nerfing it and everyone suddenly agrees that it’s broken.

Now for the DR ban it was more like this:
There was only a select crowd complaining about the DR -> let’s ban it -> everyone agrees that it’s bad and boom, spy was limited to a single playstyle.

It’s the same for engineer:
A select crowd complaining about the wrangler -> everyone starts to agree that it’s bad -> boom, you just limited engineer to a single playstyle.

I’m pretty sure that if you bring up the idea of banning any weapon the majority would agree that it’s a good idea, because it makes their own life easier. That’s why I dislike these preseason cups where they ban things. We shouldn’t ban things but instead try to allow things. Every time a preseason cup was played everyone will be under the impression that it’s better with some specific weapons bans because they had an easier time grinding their logs. Next preseason cup we’re going to ban the blackbox and concheror, I’m sure that the majority would agree that it’s a lot easier to play against a soldier without those unlocks and it’ll be the soldier mains defending themselves.

This is why discussions and voting systems don’t work. The majority would be for banning the weapon and the minority would be against. Because the majority profits from the ban. The minority has no chance for a defense, they’ll just have to accept it even though the solution is learning how to play against it. This is how you get people like Vclox to get a weapon banned for the entire season.


Last edited by Nightmare,

Rambosaur

Try
SDCK

In contrast to my opinion, I sense a consensus that the wrangler should not be banned.
How would fellow lords of the wrench feel about a Rescue ranger ban instead though?
Actually running shotgun + lvl3s in some games and having played with a temporary ban-test on HLPugs (sponsor me), I feel like thát ban might provide a nice middle ground with a slight fresh breath of air. No rescue ranger would mean the survivability of a sentry vs ubers will decrease yet still give it plenty tanking-power and keep the glorious ability to be FIRIN’ MAH LAZER. Also +dm -dauntingminicritrichochetdeaths.

Regarding the mappool, I think rotating at least 2 maps/season keeps things spicy. Be it switching badwater for instance with vigil this season, trading it back for another map next season etc. Same with giving propaganda a shot instead of maybe gully..? https://imgur.com/tpusDQ7 /Wrench out

i have descended from my wrench throne to tell you that wrangler is fine and badwater is ok too
i really dont think its as bad as people make it out to be

i dont even play engineer anymore, but wrangler by this point is such an important tool for the engineer to actually do his job/class role on payload (and valve made the intention for engineer to be an area denial class fairly clear) if you remove the weapon you literally just cut the class entirely since sentries are actually very weak and can just be destroyed out of its effective range, anyone who has played engineer for more than 10 hours knows this
maybe instead of deleting a weapon people should coordinate pushes cause you’re playing a team game?? even with wrangler in the game, points still get pushed and games still get finished – lets not pretend that wrangler is the cause of all pushing issues lol

lets not keep with the trend of destroying classes because at this point in the game’s lifespan we can all agree its good for nobody to make classes unfun to play when you already struggle to find people to play certain classes (like engineer)

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