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idk? frog in division 1
Created 19th February 2010 @ 21:12
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Quoted from Kop
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half of div 2 ? I meant the people that rage and cry EVERY time something doesnt go there way, like hundreds of other posts from previous weeks, also plenty of people who have been “pathetic and childish” in this thread like i said are not from div 2 and some dont even have a division so please get your facts correct.
Guys the decision has been made, We made a choice and we will stick with it, Sorry to those who don’t agree but its done, end of story.
Be angry at us all you want but please remember before you start insulting us that we just want a fun league where people can play the game they love and if you feel we need help then apply to become an admin, we have not hidden the fact that we are lacking numbers and more numbers may give us more options and different opinions. Atleast have the balls to apply and help rather than rage at us
And I meant the people that are posting here that have nothing to do with those other decisions and still get called “pathetic and childish”. In my humble opinion you should never resort to such language if you have an example to set as an admin, no matter how retarded or pathetic those people might be.
If you keep an attitude up like “we made a decision and you can cry all you want but we simply don’t care.”, it’s not really sending off the right signal, is it? We also want a fun league where people can play the game they want and enjoy it, run by admins that listen to the community. Sure, a line has to be drawn somewhere, but here it looks more like an excuse not to do it as it requires too much work. In my opinion not in any case should a clan be moved up without competing for it, ever ever ever.
And I would love to help out and apply but I’m about 90% certain it will be turned down anyway and otherwise there will be a lot of headbutting. So I rather just give my opinion every now and then in here :)
Quoted from Jackium
What I have heard there is no much room for new admins to have opinions or chance to have impact what’s going on in ETF2L, there is some bunch admins that make decisions for what is going to happen.
Not saying that community should have some information who is voting for all these things but would really be interesting see it. Noticed that div4/5 admin (no lack of respect) telling that these changes is just to have this game more fun, for sure, but is it really good for the game to have these changes? For sure there is going to be that debated “gentleman” rules for top-end but how does this help rest of the community to became “pro” and more skillful?
You guys really should put up some polls and ask around from top players (beside that one obscure admin) and people that are having some influence to this scene to what they recommend to be done.
etf2l could learn a thing or 2 from ESL regarding player input
Last edited by skinnie,
Quoted from Hansa
[…]
You, sir, are a perfect rosbeef in all its splendor :)
Yeah, because you’re so different….
Last edited by Insomniak,
Quoted from Jones
Why do you all care so much? It has nothing to do with anyone apart from idk frogs, the admin team and any other team that feel they deserve a shot. I’ve not seen a single player from any team who is hard done by post here so why is everyone else?
The absolute worst thing the admin team could do now is change their decision because that would open the flood gates for any other shit storm.
It has lots to do with Div2 players that’s for sure, especially the stronger teams in each division, as I’m pretty sure they would much prefer to fight it out with the idk Frog team for the top spots rather than broder or perhaps notag.
It is also a legitimate concern for those not directly involved. If the same outlook is taken in the future we could end up with replica scenarios involving other teams and divisions where there is a clear skill mis-match in the division placings. If people picture themselves in such a scenario and disagree with the outcome, they are more than entitled to voice their opinion about this situation to try and prevent something similar happening in the future. It’s not unlike a public protest against a governing body’s decision on cultural or ethical grounds, even though it doesn’t directly concern the protesters.
It’s also a concern because it’s potentially a less favourable prospect for those that like to spectate and follow Div1 games. Certainly I would prefer to watch a broder vs (other div1 team) game than I would idk Frog, although ironically because of the interest and exposure this decision is raising, idk Frog might well be followed pretty closely in their first few matches to see how they measure up against the competition.
It really surprises, and more so, worries me that this admin decision was unanimous (with 2 abstaining) as it puts forward a message that skill/ability is not a major concern when placing teams, even in the premier ETF2L division. I can understand that the admins want to minimize the chance of defaults and dropouts from teams during the season but surely it’s worth taking the chance with a team that can put up a good fight when the alternative is a team that is almost guaranteed to be last place at the end of the season. The whole point of Divisions in the first place is to segregate teams in terms of skill which facilitates healthy competition.
Kaidus has also made a good point (twice now) about playoffs. Admins: If you want to show that skill is a major concern when placing teams in ETF2L, how about you let the teams fight it out properly in playoffs instead of trusting in your own subjective, potentially biased opinions. Unanimous vote? Seriously…
I haven’t had internet access at home for a couple of days, so excuse me for not being up to speed on this.
Let’s assume that the position would go to either idk? Frog or Broder. I know Mr and notag are really good teams, but let’s not confuse the argument too much (yet). (I also agree with D2M’s post about how the structure of a fair 4 team playoff would be too complicated/time consuming, after the league has already started, by the way.)
I read somewhere in this thread that the admin team took the recent form of both teams into account and made an assessment of perceived stability, and with that knowledge, they then voted on it. Is there something wrong with that decision making process?
What is the problem exactly? Do Broder have better results than Frog? Is there some reason why Broder are less likely to fold? Like I said, I’m not up to speed, so I don’t know. Nobody seems to have really taken the time to actually explain why it’s such a heinously bad decision over the past eleven pages! :D
From looking at idk’s website: Frogs have been going longer than Broder. Frogs recently attended a LAN. Frogs, over many different competitions (various ESH cups, WP), have recently beaten Empire, Monster Munch, Broder (minus Torden), Breeze and Rats. To my knowledge, they’ve beaten at least one other div 1 team in a pcw.
From looking at ESH: in one competition, Broder have beaten Blame and idk? black. In another they beat FB on one round of Gravel Pit. In pcws, they have strong wins vs Blight and notag, they have a couple of really promising results vs TCM and PwR that are losses (I assume, only seen the scores, not the games).
All I’m asking, guys, is that you use facts to further your point of view rather than basing your argument on statements like “it’s my personal belief that Broder are the better team”. In a large community like ours, those kind of statements are rarely helpful since they can’t be quantified. It’s really important that the admin team doesn’t make decisions based on gut feeling or intuition, but can demonstrate why the decisions they made went a certain way.
All the admin team can do is take the decision that they believe to be right. That decision might not always be popular.
Addressing a couple other important points, not central to what I posted above:
About the Broder vs WWW playoff: There’s definitely merit to the argument that because Broder played in a prior div 1 playoff they should be the next to go to div 1. I can only assume that what the admins found in their deliberations were deemed to be more significant reasons. Personally, I don’t think anyone realised quite how good Frogs were when that playoff took place (the fixture was generated more than a month ago). What if Frog are more deserving? Is it fair to put Broder in just because they had the opportunity to play (and convincingly lose to a super strong team) a div 1 playoff last month?
About the idk? Frog vs Broder playoff: Personally I’d love to see this happen. The teams are close enough in skill that a playoff would probably be the best resolution.
I don’t know exactly what the problem with that would be apart from week 1 games being screwed, but the admins have been pretty clear so far that it’s not viable because of scheduling issues. I’m not a league admin, technically, so I’m willing to take their word for it and defer to their judgement.
Anyway, I’ve spoken with both Broder and Frog tonight. It’s clear to me that we should have communicated better with them. So hopefully, at least we can learn something from this situation and make it work better the next time something like this comes up.
At the end of the day, both Broder and Frog seem deserving of a division 1 spot. Both sides of the argument have merit. Let’s see how it plays out. It’s not like we put Breeze there.
broder is ready to play today at 21.15 CET
if the frogs also have time, lets do some granlandspit action
excuses like we havent trained granlands cant really count :D
Quoted from JimmyBreeze
I haven’t had internet access at home for a couple of days, so excuse me for not being up to speed on this.
Let’s assume that the position would go to either idk? Frog or Broder. I know Mr and notag are really good teams, but let’s not confuse the argument too much (yet). (I also agree with D2M’s post about how the structure of a fair 4 team playoff would be too complicated/time consuming, after the league has already started, by the way.)
Ok, maybe not 4 teams when notag has already pointed out they’re happy to compete in div2, I don’t know what Mr wants however. But afaik broder is up for it and 1 night cup for example doesn’t take too much time.
I read somewhere in this thread that the admin team took the recent form of both teams into account and made an assessment of perceived stability, and with that knowledge, they then voted on it. Is there something wrong with that decision making process?
idk? frog also lost to px in the cup when we didn’t even have our main lineup, not to mention broder has proven players that competed in div1 before and their already promising results. Unlike idk frog, who might have been around longer and have a few good results against an almost dead team (Monster Munch), low div1 teams (Empire, r@ts), breeze (really worth the mention?) and broder (without their main lineup).
What is the problem exactly? Do Broder have better results than Frog? Is there some reason why Broder are less likely to fold? Like I said, I’m not up to speed, so I don’t know. Nobody seems to have really taken the time to actually explain why it’s such a heinously bad decision over the past eleven pages! :D
If activity or stability really was a requirement to play in div1, we might aswell tell www to go to div2 or whatever because they “just” formed, no? ;D Hardly an arguement.
From looking at idk’s website: Frogs have been going longer than Broder. Frogs recently attended a LAN. Frogs, over many different competitions (various ESH cups, WP), have recently beaten Empire, Monster Munch, Broder (minus Torden), Breeze and Rats. To my knowledge, they’ve beaten at least one other div 1 team in a pcw.
From looking at ESH: in one competition, Broder have beaten Blame and idk? black. In another they beat FB on one round of Gravel Pit. In pcws, they have strong wins vs Blight and notag, they have a couple of really promising results vs TCM and PwR that are losses (I assume, only seen the scores, not the games).
Look up, compare.
All I’m asking, guys, is that you use facts to further your point of view rather than basing your argument on statements like “it’s my personal belief that Broder are the better team”. In a large community like ours, those kind of statements are rarely helpful since they can’t be quantified. It’s really important that the admin team doesn’t make decisions based on gut feeling or intuition, but can demonstrate why the decisions they made went a certain way.
All the admin team can do is take the decision that they believe to be right. That decision might not always be popular.
Isn’t that what the admin team is doing right now however? In THEIR “gut” or “opinion” it is better to have idk frog? in div1 without a real explanation and when there are enough viable options to make them compete for their place. And please don’t come with that “no time” crap, you still have at least a week. I’m pretty sure a suitable date can be found within that week.
Addressing a couple other important points, not central to what I posted above:
About the Broder vs WWW playoff: There’s definitely merit to the argument that because Broder played in a prior div 1 playoff they should be the next to go to div 1. I can only assume that what the admins found in their deliberations were deemed to be more significant reasons. Personally, I don’t think anyone realised quite how good Frogs were when that playoff took place (the fixture was generated more than a month ago). What if Frog are more deserving? Is it fair to put Broder in just because they had the opportunity to play (and convincingly lose to a super strong team) a div 1 playoff last month?
If they deffo had more reasons to add idk frog? to div1, I would love to see why, but seeing broder already played for the playoff for div1, they should be moving up and not idk frog?. I see that logic was applied in div2 however, we played against exhilium for our div2 spot, won and now when a team folds they still get placed into div2 (makes our playoff match a bit pointless, but nevermind that). However when it comes to div1, that reasoning doesn’t get applied .. There is no logic or consistency here and it feels like the admin team is just messing around.
About the idk? Frog vs Broder playoff: Personally I’d love to see this happen. The teams are close enough in skill that a playoff would probably be the best resolution.
Yes plz.
I don’t know exactly what the problem with that would be apart from week 1 games being screwed, but the admins have been pretty clear so far that it’s not viable because of scheduling issues. I’m not a league admin, technically, so I’m willing to take their word for it and defer to their judgement.
Anyway, I’ve spoken with both Broder and Frog tonight. It’s clear to me that we should have communicated better with them. So hopefully, at least we can learn something from this situation and make it work better the next time something like this comes up.
At the end of the day, both Broder and Frog seem deserving of a division 1 spot. Both sides of the argument have merit. Let’s see how it plays out. It’s not like we put Breeze there.
It would be nice if the admins listened to the community for a change and always stick to having playoff for these kind of spots, it has been done before (even past week 2 like last season) and it should always happen. There should never, ever, ever be any clan that just got moved up without being to compete for it. That’s not a league, that’s a pisstake.
But hey, what do I know ;D
Last edited by demsii,
If activity or stability really was a requirement to play in div1, we might aswell tell www to go to div2 or whatever because they “just” formed, no? ;D Hardly an arguement.
I don’t think it’s a requirement, nor did I say that it is one, but it’s certainly a consideration.
Isn’t that what the admin team is doing right now however? In THEIR “gut” or “opinion” it is better to have idk frog?
I don’t think so, no. It may well be their gut feeling that Frog is a better D1 fit (I don’t know if it is, you’d have to ask them), but I believe that they applied a series of criteria, based on sensible value judgements (eg an official result is better than a pcw result, more activity is better, etc), and came out with the conclusion that Frog were more deserving.
Last edited by JimmyBreeze,
Quoted from Swarley
You still here Demourge?
Isn’t hard to guess when I’m still replying, right? Captain obvious is obvious.
Quoted from JimmyBreeze
[…]
I don’t think it’s a requirement, nor did I say that it is one, but it’s certainly a consideration.
[…]
I don’t think so, no. It may well be their gut feeling that Frog is a better D1 fit (I don’t know if it is, you’d have to ask them), but I believe that they applied a series of criteria, based on sensible value judgements (eg an official result is better than a pcw result, more activity is better, etc), and came out with the conclusion that Frog were more deserving.
I guess they didn’t take into consideration all the official games then. Still, if you have a good pcw result (loss, draw) against a div1 clan it should count more than a win in an official for a div2 clan.
But it doesn’t matter anyway, I doubt anything will happen and we might aswell just let it go.
Last edited by demsii,
how can idk? frog jump straight from division 3 to 1 without having to prove themselves (officially) versus the other contender for division 1
Why the fuck do you all care, most of you aren’t even effected in the least, the decision was made and the admins already explained how they came to this conclusion and why there is no time to go through any tedious play-off procedures, what more do you want? All the admins have to go by is their gut lacking results to go by and the only difference between you and the admins is that your gut says otherwise. This isn’t a fucking democracy, the admins have to make the calls, and writing ANOTHER twelve pages of regurgitated worthless bullshit about how you think team x is better isn’t going to accomplish anything except annoy the shit out of people who have to read it (admins).
Maybe it wasn’t the right decision to make, you’ve all made it very clear in the last 12 FUCKING PAGES that you think so, but what you’re doing here is a waste time.
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