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Discussion regarding the usage of banned players.
Created 14th October 2009 @ 10:46
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i dont think “shit happens” is valid – if its preventable, then you shouldn’t have to accept it.
TDR are not being punished because of our failure to spot him creating a new account for a long time. If he had been banned just before your game and you’d recruited and played him when he made a new account last week you would have had the same punishment.
Screening all players is not a reasonable request at all. There are hundreds of people playing TF2 in ETF2L, unfortunately some people will slip through.
We are not docking anyone points for not doing enough work to find out if a cheat plays for them. If a cheat plays for a team, that team default loses the game. This is the reason for the default loss. This might seem like semantics but you’re loading false reasoning onto the admin’s decision.
A team faces punishment for fielding a cheat regardless of whether the admins knew about them before, or whether the clan knew about them before.
It is incredibly difficult to prove whether a clan did or didn’t know about a cheater in most cases. Because of this, the rules look harsh on some cases.
A rematch isn’t practical.
1. A rematch would not be allowed to benefit the rule breaking team.
2. A rematch would inconvenience the other team that did nothing wrong.
3. The rematch would only promote bad attitudes between clans, especially if the rule breaking clan wins the replay, as they would assume any points earnt were unfair. This point has already been proved with some of the posts in this thread.
4. Rematches would then be requested for all sorts of reasons (teams fielding a merc without asking, teams who abuse map bugs, teams fielding a player who is later to have found out to have cheated in that match)
In an ideal world we wouldn’t have default wins. However, I’d sooner have a team hate the admin team for giving a default win, than hate another team for refusing to play a rematch or for the ‘unfair’ result of a rematch.
Cba anymore to respond to all that stuff above. But I would like to see some statement from the AC team. Why he slipped through, and why he was caught in the end. I don’t care about the points anymore. I just want to know what caused this situation.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Cheaters must be punished.End of story
Last edited by alfa,
For the benefit of a good discussion, would people who disagree with the way the admins have handled this be willing to answer the following questions please –
1. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
2. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
3. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
4. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
I’d be interested to see your opinions.
If a cheat plays for a team, that team default loses the game. This is the reason for the default loss. This might seem like semantics but you’re loading false reasoning onto the admin’s decision.
A team faces punishment for fielding a cheat regardless of whether the admins knew about them before, or whether the clan knew about them before.
It is incredibly difficult to prove whether a clan did or didn’t know about a cheater in most cases. Because of this, the rules look harsh on some cases.
So what about 2SYK/nfinity? In that case I believe they were allowed to replay their matches as opposed to just giving defaults in every case and that was far far more obvious than this instance.
It may be incredibly difficult to prove whether a clan knew or not, but surely in cases where it is blindingly obvious that the clan were completely unaware enforcing the same rules just for the sake of it is being unnecessarily harsh? A rematch where the opponents of the “rule-breaking” team have nothing but something to gain on their original result is hardly being unfair on them (most clans play 1-2 pcws 3-5 nights a week, making one of those an official is hardly going to matter). You also seem to make it out that TDR are anything but innocent in this matter, whereas I think most people agree that they did absolutely nothing wrong.
1. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Default + serious pts deduction. Possibly 6. Major warning
2. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Rematch, minor warning
3. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Same as before – major pts deduction, default, major warning
4. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Same as before again – rematch, minor warning
My worthless view
1) Koeitje, i agree with you and i’m on your side, you’re misunderstanding me.
2) What he said ^
The problem here, well imo at least, is NOT the fact that a default win was given. Imo, that’s the natural side effect. It’s a bit much to expect the enemy team to have to replay it. But that’s just my opinion. If it were me, i’d play again just because i’m a nice guy.
The problem is docking the points off TDR. That really seems like kicking a man when he’s down. ESPECIALLY in this case – you guys didn’t know that he was a cheat, he’d had the account active for the better part of a year, he’d had a clan history on his profile.
If even the anti-cheat team who have resources and manpower to discover these people DID NOT RECOGNISE that this established account was a teacher, how can you possibly expect TDR to notice and then hold them accountable?
This is your league, it’s not major government and it’s not life or death. It’s a league that we all made and we all play in. You don’t HAVE to dock TDR points. You could quite easily say “Forget the docked points, TDR were clearly not responsible or aware that this year-old account belonged to a cheater. In this case it is not suitable to punish the clan.”
I wouldn’t even give em a warning. Warn them for what? “Don’t allow an established community member who turns out to be a banned cheat to play for you again. Naughty naughty, let this be a lesson to you.”
I don’t see the point in docking points or warning them. If anyone complains/accuses etf2l of breaking its own rules, you can simply say “Go and read up on the issue, they didn’t deserve points docked.” And you’ll be commended for your application of common sense.
Doesn’t that make sense to you?
Walloftext but i think that’s summed it up.
what vali said :)
Are we still discussing about it. Because the etf2l is so badly organized, i couldnt care less of deduction of points. I only see etf2l as a place to see whats happening in the community and to schedule official matches. Giving a default without rematch only shows the incompetence of the organization again. But still, its just some stupid points. They cant take away my joy to play tf2 and to play with rejects. Like yesterday, the victory was worth a lot more for me then the 6 points. For me sportsmanship is more important than winning at all costs.
vlad_drac the penalty point deduction has already been removed. The warning itself also serves as a warning for other clans, not just for TDR.
Vali the situations are different. Making an exception in that case has already proved what I said in this case, that the more exceptions we have the more complaints we have that people aren’t getting what other people got. In that circumstance, fielding a banned player who was banned for his conduct is less of a threat to the validity of a result than fielding a banned player who was banned for cheating.
For the benefit of a good discussion, would people who disagree with the way the admins have handled this be willing to answer the following questions please –
1. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Yes. Default + big points deduction, at least a major warning as well.
2. Do you believe a clan who plays a cheater in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Rematch. Perhaps a minor warning, not sure about this part. I’m always for the “innocent until proven guilty” side. Perhaps a note on their team page saying “played with a cheater, unable to prove that they didn’t know about it”?
3. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game and can be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
Yes. Default, big points deduction, at least a major warning.
4. Do you believe a clan who plays a player who has been banned previously and has created a new account in a game but cannot be proved to have known about it should be punished, and if so how? (rematch / points deduction etc.)
I’d be interested to see your opinions.
Rematch. Result can never be better than the match played already (if with the banned player it was 3-3, the rematch result will be 3-3 at best for that team). Same here, perhaps a note on their team page saying “played with a cheater, unable to prove that they didn’t know about it”?
Last edited by Buffalo Bill,
If a cheat plays for a team, that team default loses the game. This is the reason for the default loss. This might seem like semantics but you’re loading false reasoning onto the admin’s decision.
A team faces punishment for fielding a cheat regardless of whether the admins knew about them before, or whether the clan knew about them before.
It is incredibly difficult to prove whether a clan did or didn’t know about a cheater in most cases. Because of this, the rules look harsh on some cases.
So what about 2SYK/nfinity? In that case I believe they were allowed to replay their matches as opposed to just giving defaults in every case and that was far far more obvious than this instance.
He wasn’t a cheater. And yes it was way more obvious than this case (hell I even knew it before admins caught it). But because he wasn’t a cheater and mads supposedly was, we get fucked. How the fuck we should have known they don’t care about.
The official etf2l policy is:
If we fuck up, you get fucked.
vlad_drac the penalty point deduction has already been removed. The warning itself also serves as a warning for other clans, not just for TDR.
That 1 point wont make a fuck all difference. It’s the default loss that makes the difference. How about giving us the normal points for the game and give us 1 point warning? How about that?
But it seems we are being used as an example to other clans. Like other clans wouldn’t know that recruiting somebody who know he is a cheater has consequences (see CdC).
This wont take away my enjoyment of the game itself, but I am getting more and more worried about the way the league is being run. As soon as a good alternative to this league shows up with a decent admin crew I’m gone. Anyone that has some experience with running big communities knows you can’t follow the rules blindly because it’s never black and white.
Last edited by Koeitje,
ur supposed to rape div3 anyway, one loss won’t make a difference. Get practising
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