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Quoted from Waebi

It would surely evolve further, and after a few weeks teams would have found the next “default” rollout which works better than others.

I’m not sure with 9 viable classes, each with tens of different loadouts, any such “default” roll out would emerge. I might be very wrong, (I normally am!), but it just seems to add too many variables for a community wide consensus to emerge as it has with the 2 scouts, 2 sollies etc.

Wether that’s a good thing or not depends on your personal point of view ofc :)

Edit: Thought I’d mention whatever is decided, I’m still going to love playing this great game of ours. If it’s Vanilla then fine, some boredom may creep in but meh, whatevs. If it’s loads of weapons then it’s going to be fun thinking up new strats to abuse them.

Quoted from dvb

[…]

Shush, you are from Latfrica, you don’t have the right to lay the truth bombs. Anyway, bring FaN back plox :)

How’s Czechslovakia doin’?

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

I’m not sure with 9 viable classes, each with tens of different loadouts, any such “default” roll out would emerge.

well, you “could” run 2 snipers on mid today already. The reason people don’t is because it’s situational and it most likely fails badly. If you combine that with a few weapon bans then I think we’d possibly end up with 3 (bad guess?) different combinations, each having maybe 2 ways to attack mid from, like the “valley” strategy. You may be right, it could indeed take some time or not happen at all, but I think it’s wrong to just say “meh it dont work, vanilla plx” rather than trying it out.

I like how everyone’s all like “FOCUSFIREHEAVYNOOB” but in-game most of you shit your pants when you see a heavy and start to rage.

Quoted from Ghostface

I like how everyone’s all like “FOCUSFIREHEAVYNOOB” but in-game most of you shit your pants when you see a heavy and start to rage.

i rage regardless if there is a heavy or not

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

The only downside to allowing most/all unlocks in my mind is the fact your success, (or lack of), at mid might come down to guessing, (or being lucky with your picks), your opponents current roll out. This isn’t skillful. Competitive gaming is supposed to be about skill, not guesswork.

This is so far from being correct it will take a wall of text to reply (so you’ll have to wait a while)

Quoted from Anathema

I doubt anyone actually cares what you have to say.

Speak for yourself please.

Popcorn time!

Quoted from Monkeh

For me the main issue with all the new weapons is that it could turn mid battles into a ‘rock-scissors-paper’ type affair.

You’ll be trying to guess your opponents roll out so you can go the ‘correct’ counter classes/weapons.

‘They went GRU heavy last round, lets run a sniper……oh, now they have two scouts….DAMN DAMN!!’

Remember they also have to counter your class line up, if their class line up is the greatest line up which will counter everything you throw at it, this is the line up that everyone will use and become the ‘default’ roll out.

To counter their roll out, you don’t have to change any of your default classes, you may just have to approach the mid fight in a different way.

For example lets look at freight (I pick freight as it already sees the most diverse roll outs)

Round 1

Team A rolls out with – Medic, demo, soldier, heavy, sniper, scout
Team B rolls out with – Medic, demo, 2 soldiers, 2 scouts

Team B is more than capable of countering Team A without having to change their classes or unlocks.

Quoted from Monkeh

Making mid battles more luck based than skill will not help the competitive scene imo. Granted there is more to tf2 than mid battles, but having all these options just means it’s more of a lottery who wins.

If you decide to change your roll out to compensate for changes they make, then they mix it up to keep you guessing that is not luck, it is a skill that a team can play in many different ways (skill is more than just DM ability).

Very few of the unlocks for the utility classes will bring a new class to mid fight, the GRU is the buff the heavy needed (heavy limit 1 please)

The other utility classes, sniper, spy, engy, pyro none of their unlocks make them viable for the mid fight alone. However if the heavy becomes a feature of more maps, the fact a heavy is used may bring the utility classes to a mid fight – This is a good thing.

Quoted from Monkeh

What it boils down to is this, do we want the game to have nine viable classes in the competitive game?

Yes, class limit 2, medic & demo limit 1, forced us into 2 soldiers 2 scouts, a demo and a medic

Quoted from Monkeh

GRU certainly makes a heavy viable for mid battles, air blast enhances the effectiveness of the pyro, mini sentry helps the engy etc. but having no idea what classes will turn up at mid makes it almost impossible to plan an effective roll out.

Some maps have viable utility class options for the roll out, and yours can be built to counter say a sniper on freight or heavy on Gully, but imagine having no idea what’s going to come rolling in… it would be guess work, not skill, that won the day.

Like I said above, you don’t have to change your roll out (class set up wise) you just need to adjust the way you approach/tackle the problems their class make up causes, being able to out DM a team is not the only skill that is/should be required

2 scouts, 2 soldiers, a demo and a medic, will counter anything they use if you play it right

Quoted from Monkeh

Saying that, banning more and more weapons means what we’re doing is bringing in more and more rules which may stifle new players wanting to make the jump from pub to comp. More rules means more chance of someone reading said rules and thinking it isn’t for them, as they’ve played with FAN or whatever for the last year and a half!

Which will shrink the European community, and no new blood will replace the players that get bored of doing the same thing over and over.

The following may be unfair and over generalisation, but when I look at the profiles of anyone lower than div 2 that goes vanilla + medic only, they all seem to have played the game competitively for around a year (give or take a couple of months). Brings me to think if they’d been playing the game back in Jan 2008, perhaps they’d be bored of the same shit day in day out

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

I’m not sure with 9 viable classes, each with tens of different loadouts, any such “default” roll out would emerge. I might be very wrong, (I normally am!), but it just seems to add too many variables for a community wide consensus to emerge as it has with the 2 scouts, 2 sollies etc.

A ‘default’ class load out would emerge, it may not take a few weeks, it may take a few months
Counter strike, and COD didn’t reach default load outs till many months after.

I recently played my first COD Black ops PCW, being a noob I asked what load out/perks should I use, The reply I got was anything as long as it shoots bullets.

After playing for an hour I quickly discovered what options would work better. The point being the best roll out will emerge eventually.

Like I have said previously, when the likes of Dustbowl, and Goldrush were removed from the map pool and we were left with ‘normal’ cp maps the class limit 2, forced the 2 soldiers, 2 scouts onto the community as their were no other viable options for a mid fight.

Valve are trying to fix this, and at every turn people in the community object, as they are stuck in a mindset that it has to be played this way!

Perhaps the problem stems from the fact that class limit 2 was decided on at the start (maybe that was a mistake).

Reply finished

sorry for just focusing on your posts monkeh (and maybe repeating myself), but they had the most points to reply to :) mix later?