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Quoted from Exfane

[…]

fixed it for ya.

First off running 2 natascha heavies is the same as running 2 normal heavies, they are only effective when defending a point (like last point). Its a valid tactic, turtle idea, but is counterable effectively.

Second, i would like to know what these heavy buffs are you’re talking about, you can’t seriously be talking about the little faster the heavy weapon spins now do ya?

Third, which team using 2 natascha heavies did you loose so badly to that you made this post?

:D

Yeah, of course, I only passed off the OP as fact, everything else said in the discussion should be taken as opinion.

Again, I’m not necessarily talking about 2 heavies, but the Natascha.

It counters:
– Soft pushes without an uber
– RJs
– Scouts

Countered by:
– Sniper/Spy
– Flanks
– Focused spam

So the Natascha promotes an even more uber-centric, pick orientated metagame as opposed to the current style. On points without an adequate flank route and no good sniper spots, it is very effective at suppressing aggression (RJs) and limiting heal distribution as the medigun is forced onto the Heavy’s target.

The buff also includes movement speed while spinning, but it’s more the fact that people use a Heavy much more now in scrims than before.

Quoted from octochris

[…]

defending last is not the “majority of situations”, unless you are getting rolled 5-0 in 10 minutes or something

defending last happens quite often in any game :)
just as there’s middle fights, second point fights, etc

I understand all the points raised here, but why does everything new or different to the standard need limiting or banning. Agreed the slow down should drop off a bit from distance but if you honestly cant counter the fat boy then your doing something wrong. Snipe him, back stab him, focus spam on him even sticky trap the fat bastard but there’s no need for a ban.

Just because it’s annoying to play against isn’t a good enough reason to ban everything. Good snipers are annoying, getting backstabbed just as you get uber defending last is annoying, running into a sticky trap is annoying, hey guess what, losing is annoying, but it’s all counterable, (if that’s a word?).

Natascha defending last? Backstab the bitch. Cant jump on him? Snipe it. 2 Nataschas? What have they dropped? Both scouts? Awesome back cap time. Both soldiers? Your scouts have no splash to worry about. 1 of each? Bit of both.

The beauty of this game, imo, is it’s variation. How many competitive games out there have the variety of classes/weapons that TF2 has? Losing is always annoying, but losing to a tactic that makes you completely re-evaluate which classes are worth using, is a different matter entirely. It’s what keeps the game fresh and interesting.

Just my 2p.

Quoted from Tikcus

[…]

as far as you are concerned, spectators like games that are end to end, and if you want my opinion to improve tf2 as far as spectators care, it’s the uber charge that needs removing!

Spectators get bored watching 2 teams grind uber, if they don’t know TF2 they don’t know what’s happening and they switch off, so to improve tf2 as a spectator sport ban medics from using an uber, the thought is rediculous.

Don’t try and justify a reason to ban unlocks to try and improve viewing.

If a natasha heavy allows a team to defend last and push back out so be it, watching a team push out from last is alot more fun than watching a team roll

*edit*

on a side note, we a lowly division 6 clan, ended up in a mismatched PCW on badlands against a div 4 team, we were quickly 3-0 down, we went ok not working so to mid we ran 2 sodleirs, a demo, and 2 heavies, we ended up losing 4-2.

if we had stayed with the conventional setup, we’d have lost 5-0.

Let’s not cripple the chances of lesser players using better tactics to their advantage, just because some ‘better’ players don’t want to learn to counter it or adapt their tactics in any way.

This would be like FIFA or the FA saying every team has to play 4-4-2, even though in certain games they would be at a massive skill disadvantage, where if they were allowed to play 5-4-1 and keep 10 men behind the ball they may have been able to upset the odds and get a result against a stronger team

I understand where you’re coming from Tik, and it’s partly Valve’ fault for introducing the concept of the hard counter in this game. Right now, some unlocks hard counter others, and in these cases the game becomes more about who chooses the right items for the right area.

You could say the game is more tactical because of this, but I feel it’s an artificial way of introducing tactics into a game which is traditionally more focused on strategy. A smart choice of items do allow a less skilled player to close the gap between a more skilled player, but is that really what people want?

I guess it depends on what kind of game everyone wants. A skill-centric game with limited choices (Quake), a tactical game with little skill (WoW), or both (Starcraft).

Quoted from Monkeh

Natascha defending last? Backstab the bitch. Cant jump on him? Snipe it. 2 Nataschas? What have they dropped? Both scouts? Awesome back cap time. Both soldiers? Your scouts have no splash to worry about. 1 of each? Bit of both.
.

back cap last? quite viable in the majority of situations.

Quoted from rAye.

what i dont get is, the direct hit is banned, and natasha heavy isnt. it’s clearly overpowered and the best counter for a heavy is the direct hit. you cant say that “oh they have heavy they are slow and immobile.” with this slow down effect and slightly faster movement during spin down the heavy can avoid spam easier and can just mow the enemy down making them unable to avoid any spam from the heavies team.

people say the direct hit slows gameplay down, the heavies natasha makes gameplay so boring. i hate playing with heavies on my team cos i know how boring its gonna be.

This is a very good point I want to emphasize, that being some counters to the Heavy (i.e. DH, Buff Banner, Crit-a-Cola) are banned limiting the ways to counter it. It’s a situation where now that we’ve banned some items, the unlocks they were supposed to counter become less counterable than first designed.

We should either allow everything or nothing.

For example, if we do ban the Natascha/DH now but allow Gunboats, you’ll get what is currently seen in NA. Medics are quitting left and right because they are constantly suicided on by roaming Soldiers.

Quoted from kuma

[…]

it’s more the fact that people use a Heavy much more now in scrims than before.

So learn to play against it, god forbid any of the 5 other classes get used, there are 9 classes in the game! TF2 will die fast if everytime a weapon appears for one of the utility classes it gets banned because it adds something new to the game, that changes the fast getting boring 2 sodliers, 2 scouts, demo, and medic lineup

Quoted from xzr

back cap last? quite viable in the majority of situations.

They were all meant as seperate situations. If the nme run 2 nataschas and no scouts then you’ll back cap easily. Not back cap last natch.