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Some pretty interesting fixes and tweaks here!

If only Valve fixed the Equalizer in a way that the speed bonus activates after ~2 seconds of equipping the weapon, that would completely eliminate “easy escapes” and “compensating bad play”, but would make a soldier’s life so much easier. Even without this fix, I think the Escape Plan should be seriously discussed for S13.

Why the f did the Crossbow get a reload time decrease of 40%? The slow rate of fire was the only disadvantage to the weapon basically. Kinda strange.

Looking forward to a Quick-Fix cup, but it needs to be very competitive (need top teams) and the normal mediguns need to be allowed too. This jumping is quite amazing and all, but still, no buff & no uber. Most Quick-Fix plays would have to be focussed on wiping on mid, possibly by already using the Quick-Fix charge because it charges faster than uber, and steamrolling to last. Interested to see if the super-mobile medic can compensate for the lack of buffs.

[edit]Mors Immortalis: Same reason some other recent unlocks are not allowed, just for the sake of keeping the rules clear and keeping things close to vanilla. The quick-fix in its old state was not useful enough to utilize in 6v6. Adding it to the whitelist would be pointless and would make the rules messier for no good reason.

Quoted from skeej

Some pretty interesting fixes and tweaks here!

If only Valve fixed the Equalizer in a way that the speed bonus activates after ~2 seconds of equipping the weapon, that would completely eliminate “easy escapes” and “compensating bad play”, but would make a soldier’s life so much easier. Even without this fix, I think the Escape Plan should be seriously discussed for S13.

Why the f did the Crossbow get a reload time decrease of 40%? The slow rate of fire was the only disadvantage to the weapon basically. Kinda strange.

Looking forward to a Quick-Fix cup, but it needs to be very competitive (need top teams) and the normal mediguns need to be allowed too. This jumping is quite amazing and all, but still, no buff & no uber. Most Quick-Fix plays would have to be focussed on wiping on mid, possibly by already using the Quick-Fix charge because it charges faster than uber, and steamrolling to last. Interested to see if the super-mobile medic can compensate for the lack of buffs.

[edit]Mors Immortalis: Same reason some other recent unlocks are not allowed, just for the sake of keeping the rules clear and keeping things close to vanilla. The quick-fix in its old state was not useful enough to utilize in 6v6. Adding it to the whitelist would be pointless and would make the rules messier for no good reason.

with the current version you would get the whole team much faster to mid, so you could outpositioning the others….demo 2scouts vs. whole team? sounds interesting :D

I was using highframes.

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

Not sure how you can suggest these points are positives? These are exactly why, imo, equaliser should stay banned. This is competitive gaming, why make it easier? We should be celebrating ‘difficult’ roll-outs, not actively closing the gap between ‘high’ and low skill and the same applies to escapes, if you end up in a stupid position you should be punished, not whip out a magic ‘axe of speed’, like something from skyrim, and get away…

Easier in inverted commas – I didn’t mean it literally but take it how you will I suppose (allows for better variety would have been a better thing for me to say). Saying that rollouts are ever difficult is just retarded and you are ignorant for thinking that rollouts are actually THAT MUCH MORE DIFFERENT/EASIER/HARDER to execute with OR without the equalizer. The equalizer allows for exciting clutch escapes amongst other things (running away last second, lucky grab of a medkit). THIS IS PRIMARILY FOR SPECTATORS. Competitive gaming is about being appealing to spectators whilst being fairly balanced at the same time – when was the last time CS was an interesting spectator game? 5 people on one team sit around for a minute, 5 people on the other team sit around for 45 seconds before they all run into a choke – repeat for 16+ 1.5 minute rounds. Meanwhile, you can have a soldier make a lucky escape from mid to meet up with his med so he can HOPEFULLY protect the medic as he retreats.

Apart from b4nny – the game is pretty much scout dominated. God forbid soldiers get destroyed harder in this game (self damage lol). Your argument just shows that you really don’t have an understanding of competitive gaming – both in terms of balance and spectator appeal.

I liked the Skyrim reference by the way – it was really cute.

Quoted from Yuki

I have talked to a few European players in the past regarding the Equalizer, and their gripe with it (9/10 cases) was the bonus damage that the equalizer had. With that “technically” being removed, and the movement speed being placed on a different item entirely – it begs the question whether you guys will actually allow it in the future or not.

Speed = easier roll-outs and reduced penalty for being out of position (see here at 20min mark, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTaoQRBfNek). The fucked up dmg was just icing to the cake.

What I love as a spectator is seeing a super low hp soldier crawl away that turns around to kill the full hp scout that was on his ass in 2 shots. Not some dribbler pressing 3 and holding w like a spazz.

Quoted from Yuki

Easier in inverted commas – I didn’t mean it literally but take it how you will I suppose (allows for better variety would have been a better thing for me to say). Saying that rollouts are ever difficult is just retarded and you are ignorant for thinking that rollouts are actually THAT MUCH MORE DIFFERENT/EASIER/HARDER to execute with OR without the equalizer.

I think it was your fine self that suggested a positive effect of allowing equaliser was an easier roll-out, I pointed out, with the careful use of apostrophes, (that’s the little ‘ mark in case you didn’t know), that this was hogwash and not what competitive gaming is about…I know, why don’t we make the scouts roll-out a little easier too by allowing them to no clip for the first 10 seconds of every round?

Was there any need to get all abusive? I am neither retarded or ignorant…well not THAT much anyway, but the fact you argue one thing in an earlier post then disagree with yourself a single post later implies you may have been referring to someone else who has posted in this thread that isn’t me.

Quoted from Yuki

The equalizer allows for exciting clutch escapes amongst other things (running away last second, lucky grab of a medkit). THIS IS PRIMARILY FOR SPECTATORS. Competitive gaming is about being appealing to spectators whilst being fairly balanced at the same time

Well this is a turn up for the books. I always thought competitive gaming was all about seeing who was the best at playing a game. TF2 will never have a huge spectator base, the game’s been out for 5 years nearly, it would have happened by now if it was going to.

Quoted from Yuki

– when was the last time CS was an interesting spectator game? 5 people on one team sit around for a minute, 5 people on the other team sit around for 45 seconds before they all run into a choke – repeat for 16+ 1.5 minute rounds.

Never played any iteration of CS, nor have I ever watched a game.

Quoted from Yuki

Meanwhile, you can have a soldier make a lucky escape from mid to meet up with his med so he can HOPEFULLY protect the medic as he retreats.

Competitive gaming…it’s all about being lucky and HOPING.

Quoted from Yuki

Apart from b4nny – the game is pretty much scout dominated. God forbid soldiers get destroyed harder in this game (self damage lol). Your argument just shows that you really don’t have an understanding of competitive gaming – both in terms of balance and spectator appeal.

I’ve only ever played TF2 in a competitive setting, so maybe you’re correct, but I really couldn’t give a rats ass about spectators, it’s about players having fun imo and yes, I’ve played a LOT of TF2 so I feel I have a decent understanding of this particular game.

Please refrain from insulting me for disagreeing with you, it really doesn’t show you in a good light at all, and please, please don’t say rollouts are easier with equalizer in one post and then say I suggested it and it’s a retarded thing to suggest in your next.

Peace.

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

Wall of text

I’m not abusing you for disagreeing with me – I’m just simply stating that you are wrong. I also never said that you were retarded – I merely stated that the statement you made on rollouts being easier was retarded.

Once again, I didn’t say that rollouts are easier with the equalizer – I said they MAY be easier for SOME (once again, I’ll point out my usage of the inverted commas on the word easier because for whatever reason you couldn’t figure out why I used them).

Competitive gaming IS definitely almost as much about appeal to spectators as it is to balance of the game itself. Elements of “clutch play” or “luck” add another interesting factor to something that already allows a high amount of skill because, lets be honest – at the highest level of anything, there is always some luck involved: build order winning in StarCraft, that lucky rocket in Quake after the other guy grabbed RA, a soldier equalizing away on a mere 20 hp to meet his medic who is on 98% and has no one else to heal). Clutch/lucky play doesn’t work because it’s “hurr durr I lucked out I win XD” (like most people seem to think) – it works because, especially in case of the Equalizer, the added mindgame effect.
Look at Mackey – he has done some of the most ridiculous things with the equalizer (sure the damage was higher back then, but that’s not my point). The thing that the other team was thinking was that (oh god, mackey is going to be jumping at us any second now). Instead, what does he do? Turns the corner into TLR’s face and completely dumbfounds him. Now look at Relic: as pocket, one of the most consistent, solid but GOD most boring players to watch. Out of nowhere, the guy does something completely out of the ordinary for him – pulls out the equalizer and smacks someone in the face (again, the damage, but not my point). Isn’t seeing people going out of the norm/”comfort zone” of what they usually do INTERESTING and EXCITING, for players and spectators alike?

And if you are going to say that “TF2 has never been much a spectator game and probably never will be” that’s COMPLETELY the wrong attitude to have. People are trying even harder than they ever have before to get more people to A) play the game and b) get others to follow the game and watch it. You sound like you really like the game for “being competitive” and want it to flourish, but on the other end you don’t care about spectators?

We tried the whole ban “op” unlocks in Australia. Where did that get us? 3 seasons of boring play with people doing the same things regardless of the unlocks. It took me 3 seasons to get the gunboats re-allowed simply because they add more flavour and variety to the game, both for the players AND spectators. In the news post announcing the return of the gunboats, the admins even stated “The gunboats have been reallowed after careful evaluation as we have seen how well they have fared in the US scene and have allowed for exciting games, and are sure to allow for some interesting games here also” or something along those lines.

You seem to thinking extremely narrowly – completely against all unlocks and other factors that ruin your perfect world of TF2 where everything slugging across a map and there is little to no excitement for players and spectators alike as a result of that.

You didn’t even counteract my argument properly – all you did was complain that I apparently abused you and kept attacking the equalizer without actually saying anything.

And for the love of god if someone actually says again that the equalizer rewards bad play – I can’t even.