Forum

Quoted from octochris

GRU isn’t OP, it just requires different methods to get rid of the heavy. People seem to have a habit of calling anything they haven’t worked out any tactics for OP…

Throw milk on enemy, Demo skips forward trololololing and spamming stickies (this is the main problem as I see it). That would be particularly bad on badlands mid. Also in mid-long range 1v1s it gives the scout a huge advantage.

Quoted from Tikcus

[…]

This is a terrible example and flawed in so many ways!

1, Assuming the scout has flanked, why would he give up his advantage and alert the medic he is there, by throwing milk first?

2, Assuming he approaches the fight on 125 hp (by the time he flanked any buff would have disappeared), his first shot would created no regen of health, so if a soldier can not react between the Mad Milk hitting the medic and the first shot being fired, The Soldier is SHIT and the medic deservers to die, and would have died anyway, as a Scout could have easily two shoted the medic in the same time it took to throw the milk (the milk land) and fire the first shot.

Eh, the milk has airtime and less visual indicators, making the fact that you have to switch back to your scattergun irrelevant. Also, the “he deserves to die” is getting a bit of a fallacy. You are correct that the actual effects ingame do not seem that much, but I can see mad milk getting pretty much mandatory for both scouts and on every midfight. Hence why I’d say 75% life leech might be a bit to much. Not because the effects are gamebreaking, but because it’s way to strong compared to all other 3 scout secondary unlocks (who were pretty much sidegrades).

Also, overpowered might be a wrong wording for the GRU. I think the stats are definately way over the top though. Even with demo speed people would still massively use it. The buffs it got after tf2beta seem really unneccesary.

To be clear, this is not and should not be a discussion about weapon bans. Just about the weapons and how they would impact the game.

Quoted from RaCio

[…]
Eh, the milk has airtime and less visual indicators, making the fact that you have to switch back to your scattergun irrelevant. Also, the “he deserves to die” is getting a bit of a fallacy. You are correct that the actual effects ingame do not seem that much

Also, overpowered might be a wrong wording for the GRU.

To be clear, this is not and should not be a discussion about weapon bans.

So discuss the other half of my post then. .. about using it to push/defend

I didn’t mention anything about switching back to Scatter gun, the fact that the scout DOES not REGEN anything till the 2nd shot, and probably has to land that flying in the AIR as a Soldier will have sent him their after first Scatter gun shot.

I wrote deserves to die, as he would have died anyway…

I really don’t think that was a fallacy, as for that medic not to die, the Scout would have needed to fire 3 or more shots without the mad milk. For the Scout to survive with the mad milk requires a Bad/unlucky soldier, as we are assuming he (the scout) is firing more than 2 shots or the mad milk is irrelevant as regen doesn’t take place till 2nd shot

*snip* relevant damage information that no one cares about *snip*

You can replay this in many different ways but for mad milk to be useful for a flanking scout to kill a medic The Soldiers need to miss a lot of their shots

For information

For a scout to regen 77 HP (the most possible from 1 shot) he needs to do 103 damage and be on less than 48 HP before the shot was fired he can not regen if he is on 125 HP, and can not over heal himself from using the milk

Getting back on topic, did anyone use the milk to aid a push or defence? did it make a difference?

Quoted from octochris

GRU isn’t OP, it just requires different methods to get rid of the heavy. People seem to have a habit of calling anything they haven’t worked out any tactics for OP…

Saying that it requires different methods implies that there’s some sort of downside to the GRU to take advantage of. There’s not a different method to taking down an equalising soldier, it just makes him able to escape a variety of situations that he’d be dead in otherwise. Also “get rid of” doesn’t take into account the out-of-combat mobility buff which is pretty significant, not only for midfights but the general presence of the heavy throughout.

The traditional method (save for class switching) has always been to focus fire the heavy, I fail to see how you could do anything more than that (that people don’t already do as alternative methods) or how the GRU has any impact other than letting the heavy escape that situation much easier.

Quoted from octochris

GRU isn’t OP, it just requires different methods to get rid of the heavy. People seem to have a habit of calling anything they haven’t worked out any tactics for OP…

I propose without the GRU the heavy is underpowered (in normal 6v6)

I’ve decided to categorise underpowered as any classes you won’t/don’t normally run to mid fight

Just because the GRU introduces a 5th class to mid fights doesn’t make it over powered

oh no! tikcus is on the subject of unlocks… keep clear!