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Just go vanilla, I don’t understand why do you think that TF2 can’t evolve or have new tactics with vanilla :D

Labour, Lazytown, and warpath barely count. They were some of the vvery first custom maps and i doubt they were even intended to be played higher than pub. The first Lazytown didn’t even have forward spawns. The rest of those maps i either dont know about (science stark indulge) or agree with you on.

Quoted from Nagash

as soon as valve release that Med/Sol/Demo/Scout are the core competitive classes, and everything else supports those classes, the better we’ll all be for it. and hopefully this beta will help them realise that.

Don’t get stuck in this mentality. The only reason they are the core competitive classes is because they are the most viable at the moment. It is not something set in stone, nor should it be.

Also, be wary about balancing maps for one particular aspect. It never works out, as you need to take into account every other possibility.

For example, if you make maps really closed off so the Natascha cannot slow, then you nerf scouts and buff soldiers and demos. The Natascha slow is one of those things that must be balanced on the weapon itself, rather than any fancy maps.

Although, I do agree with you that maps should be improved to serve the competitive scene. Granary has too many chokes and not enough flanks, slowing the game down and making it more uber-centric. Add a flank and make the right middle choke wider with one door rather than two, and you suddenly allow for a little more momentum to flow through.

Quoted from Waster

We are playing with mostly with scouts, soldiers and demoman (and medic off course) in the competitve scene. Is that a problem? As long as people like it and its fairly balanced it isnt. So why should we introduce the other classes more into the competitive scene?
Will it bring more skill to scene or more strategy? I dont think so. I think dying in one stab or one head/bodyshot is annoying enough. Its the long battles where skill and strategy shines that seperates the good from the bad players. I have also a large complaint about the natascha heavy. He is just standing there without moving and slowing down people. Because of the slowdown it isnt even a skill anymore to hit people with it. I think that bringing more utility classes to the game will remove skill and strategy from the game. It will also remove the surprise value these classes have when they are used now.

Obviously, as already pointed out, the point of the open beta would be to work on getting those weapons fixed. So while you are correct that the natasha is annoying it does nothing to counter any argument made is this thread. If anything it supports the thought that we should embrace the beta to get the weapons fixed in a proper way.

Quoted from Waster

Then the argument is used that it will increase the competitive community. When after the highlander al those engineers, pyro’s and spies can find a home in a 6vs6 team. But the question is, why should we care about these people? If they are more interesting playing their utility class then being competitive, whats the point in introducing them to the competitive community? What we are doing is, we decrease the level of the 6vs6 competitive level to the publevel and say our competitive community is growing! But at the same time you can say the overal skill level and strategy to play the game declined! I dont think that anyone in the competitive community wants that, because then we cant improve and get good, the whole point of getting competitive.

New players do not bring down the skill level of teams, they don’t affect the skill of division 1-6 teams. If anything more teams makes a scene more competitive.
You are correct about the fact that you don´t have to care about new players. That said, you should be really thankful to the people who do some effort to get people from publics into competitive play. It´s exactly how Macewindu got you into competitive play ;)

Quoted from Waster

I think that anyone should agree with changes that will make the class balance better and that will add strategy and skill to the game. So if valve is doing that i am all up for it. But if we take a closer look at the unlocks valve added, we now this isnt the case. All unlocks seems to remove class balance and strategy! Sandman, fan, buff banner, direct hit, natascha, wrangler to name a few.

You might just be correct here, I don’t get why you flamed Fragga earlier in your post as this supports Fragga’s argument. There is no problem with criticizing ‘bad’ unlocks like tdh, the problem lies with people even renouncing fine unlocks like the equalizer.

Quoted from Waster

About maps. The only fun maps are the maps designed by valve. Really, if they put their effort in making stupid hats in unlocks into making good maps, this game would be much better off. I cant really be happy with maps like yukon, prolane, mainline, coldfront. If we want to try something new. Why not play some payload maps instead like badwater and upward?

Maps like Koth_viaduct are generally appreciated everywhere including in top USA divisions, the only people who appear to make a problem out of new maps are a small group of division 1 players (which they are free to do ofc). Personally I think tf2 works a bit better with maps with a capture point due to spawn time mechanics, so I’m not to sure about payload maps.

Good to see some div1 players agreeing with (the last parts of) your post though.

Quoted from skinnie

just play highlander if you want cl1? no need to change competitive tf2 into something awful just because you played some bad mannered teams

I would really like to know how 6vs6 cl1 + bad maps will increase the playerbase and how this will lead to more sponsors

6v6 cl1 and highlander are two different animals, highlander you know what everyone else is running, and 9 players is far to many for most maps. 6v6 you still have choices

Did i mention ‘Bad maps’ i mentioned playing maps other than badlands or granary (or clones off)

play badlands and granary 6v6 cl1 for all i care, see how it plays out.

But what ever they do to individual classes it will not bring them into comp 6v6 (other than occasional utilitys) with class limit set to 2, as none will ever provide the versitility of scouts and soldiers

I never said this would increase the player base, i stated why we want to increase the player base.

If advertisers see 300 teams who play regular, they may not be interested in advertising/sponsoring. however if they see 3000 teams (or enter bigger number than 300 here) they will be more inclined to put their money into tf2

Quoted from WARHURYEAH

[…]

Becuase some lowly pubber will think “:O I CAN PLAY HEAVY NOW IN COMP!”

Wham, one more player that plays competitive, one more player that can make a new team, one more player that fills and STV slot, and one more player that signs of for ESH cups so the div1’s can get their money.

people can play heavy in competitive already? and 90% of the teams don’t bother to sign up to esh atm, so that argument sounds unlikely to me

I think the reason that they don’t make more 5 cp maps is that they just aren’t as popular. I just play pubs these days and often it’s hard to find a 24 man granary/badlands server where as the pay load maps seems very popular.

Valve just make what the majority of there users want. They aren’t anti comp play they just don’t think a comp player’s opinion is worth more than any one else (which is perfectly fair we all paid the same).

Quoted from kuma

To be honest, if all we had was kritz, and valve announced the uber, I’m sure most of you would be horrified that people can now be invulnerable. It really slows the game down when two teams are just building uber at a a choke, doesn’t it?

This is so true