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Can’t you reconsider the snakewater version? If it isn’t enforced how is the map maker gonna have feedback?

Also was the class limit on the config to stop for example a medic changing class on last to defend it?

Quoted from Selek

blah why not more unlocks blah

I agree entirely. almost no weapon is so entirely op that it cannot be countered or accounted for, especially if people know what they have to expect. the only reason (I don’t see valid) is that some people don’t want to think about counters.

considering you still ban weapons that are truly op without downside, what’s the worst that could happen?
a) people try out weapons, and abandon bad ones
b) people have more variety if they choose to
c) gameplay is more interesting for outsiders (comp newbies or pubplayers watching or trying out comp)
d) some people who don’t want their precious 2007 tf2 experience to catch up to reality.

I can deal with d), but I don’t see any valid arguments agaInst the rest. I would far more prefer more unlocks to esea ruleset and scoring

Quoted from AnimaL

do tell me more about countering 100 unlocks that have different counters and is in no way possible to know what weapon certain player is gonna be using to figure out proper counter

entire team going spy before rollout is the new meta

at first, to check what the other team is using

then, to counter the other team doing exactly that

Quoted from AnimaL

do tell me more about countering 100 unlocks that have different counters and is in no way possible to know what weapon certain player is gonna be using to figure out proper counter

What weapons are so over-powered that they require a specific counter?
I know there are some weapons that, in the 6v6 environment, become silly; like the Soda Popper that allows you to (almost) one-shot a Medic and makes your pistol ridiculous along the way.
But most other weapons just slightly change how the class itself is played and the class is still ‘countered’ by another class that trumped them anyway (Heavy/Sniper).

The Wrangler is not a fair example. It’s been suspect-tested in HL as well. The GRU have been around, too. The Huntsman, really? I doubt it’d make the sniper any more viable beyond messing about.
I asked about counters, though, not what you consider over-powered. Regardless, have you ever thought about that the casual pub player might be less fussed about supposed op unlocks being allowed than most weapons they know from pubs being banned without a cohesive agenda behind it? I know I was.

Quoted from AnimaL

They all need special counters if you cant see please get out of div5

good argument

Quoted from AnimaL

They all need special counters if you cant see please get out of div5

No need to get insulting, and okay, I already played seasons over div 5, can we discuss this like adults now?

Quoted from AnimaL

They all need special counters if you cant see please get out of div5

You aren’t doing yourself any favours by being a nobhead animal.

As for me, I think the winger is the start of a worrying trend. Unlocks should provide metagame change or real depth to have merit for inclusion, the kritzkreig, gunboats, Boston Basher being prime examples of excellent unlocks that deserve their place in the metagame.

The winger, I feel, has lacked a particularly resonant support and although it provides variety it doesn’t necessarily provide metagame change. I think there are lots of nice winger jumps you can do etc but that depth is purely minimal and the winger has now become an excuse; “allow the direct hit, I can use it to snipe snipers”. “Allow the conch cos I saw platinum use it” “Allow the degreaser please, pyro needs to be viable at switching weapons really fast” et al.

This represents the death of the ETF2L mindset. I would encourage anyone who wants more unlocks to judge them off the similar merits of existing unlocks and make a case for allowing them based on what they offer from our stance of not having them, like we did with everything in the game so far and not on what the winger is offering (unless I’m missing the point)

And no don’t you dare mention variety. If you want variety go play pub or go outside.