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Fuck computer crashed, long ass reply lost, short version:

HL is new, lets see if it is still growing after 12 seasons. You might be right, but lets see.

Unlocks don’t create on the fly strats, they just replace the current meta with a new one. There will be a new standard that everyone uses. For example in NA, there are no random strats. Their meta is a lot to do with bombing.

Quoted from AcidReniX

I’m bored of 6v6 now, but I was campaigning this for years before I was bored of it. Me being bored now is because the game is too repetitive. I cast games of TF2, and there’s nothing new in the game I see. No one is coming up with anything new, it’s all about the execution of meta game strategies now, nothing more.

You mean, just like… any established sport / competitive game? Kinda referring back to my previous post about a game being the sum of it’s rules and mechanics: a game is suppósed to be repetitive in a sense, that’s what makes it THAT certain defined game, and not some other game.

Also I disagree, the metagame has been changing and is still changing. The changes are just subtle. For example: over the last few seasons, mid play has become so much more agressive, and agression is also more anticipated. That’s why we see the roaming soldier being less effective as a popper/picker.

6v6 could be played with so much more mastery, on 2 levels: I think there is still enough territory to explore, metagame strategy-wise, but teams are currently not enticed to do this, simply because there are already enough effective strategies at hand which seem to be sufficient for winning, as long as individual player skill is sufficient.

On the other hand, the execution of the meta game strategies is far from perfect as of this moment. As a caster you surely would agree that even in the top team matches, loads of mistakes in the form of miscoordination, dm fail, miscommunication, positioning errors, timing errors are made. In other words: if this game was bigger, if there was more competition, and therefore more reason to improve and perfect, the current top level games would look more akin to div2 games. And look at how Epsilon and Infused are lonely at the top… Even the teams just below them are already happy to score just a few rounds against them.

As long as we have no catalyst to improve, adding more stuff into the metagame would only make game outcomes more arbitrary. If people aren’t mastering the current ruleset, why would they be mastering “current ruleset + x unlocks” ? It’s like trying to save a marriage by having a baby. Bad decision.

It’s fine… if that’s how people want to play, then it’s how people want to play, I’m not going to argue with that. All I am saying is by adding more to the game, you encourage people to have to think on their feet, develop ‘on the fly’ strategies and counters, and it tests their decision making and mental capabilities far more than the current game has to offer.

I can’t really argue against your point here, because on some cases, YES, it is true: diversity adds complexity adds depth to game mechanics. But the important point is, that diversity can also change game mechanics too far away from their fundamentals, or not add depth at all. Obvious examples are unlocks that completely change a class’ application or are simply extremely powerful.

The point you make about changing the metagame does make perfect sense, and I accept it as a valid argument. It’s just a difference of opinion which is fine. I personally want to keep the game as fresh as possible, for as long as possible. Unlike in other sports, FPS gamers retain their general gameplay skills, and move to a different game after a few years, when something new comes out. The general controlling mechanics remain very close to what they currently play, but other things change. I think TF2 is an awesome game, and I think by adding select unlocks to the game, it keeps the game fresh, and prolongs the life of the game, keeps players and spectators entertained after they have exhausted almost all of the current gameplay possibilities in the standard game, instead of it just becoming a routine.

Not much to say here what I haven’t already said. “Agree to disagree” is such a discussion killer though :D. To break this spell I have a provocative yet sincere question regarding your standpoint: obviously Monster Munch was an amazing team in their prime, (I remember pcw’ing rawr with my old team and getting absolutely destroyed) but we have to stay honest and and realize that it wasn’t a top-top team. How can you say the gameplay (and your individual play) has been exhausted, when you haven’t been at the absolute top? Also, you’re advocating for more diversity, but has your mainclass ever been something else than scout/sniper (and the situational offclasses)?

This question, along with the point I made above about the top teams, is to prove that we haven’t even begun to approach mastery in this game with it’s current ruleset, even though people would like to think otherwise.

The current skill ceiling currently revolves around having a basic understanding of the simple game mechanics, and having good hand/eye co-ordination, and that’s about how much depth this game has left.

Dó remember though (and this may sound very conservative), this will always first and foremostly be an FPS. FPS, at its core, is simply about mastering hand-eye coördination. Step 2 in most competitive FPS games is mastering its physics and movement. The more gameplay elements we stack onto the FPS, the more it becomes detached from its FPS core, because you approach a line where hand-eye coördination can get outplayed in too many ways (for instance, simply by equipping the right unlock against another certain unlock). A player who outsmarts another player by having a certain unlock/class in a certain situation obviously deserves the victory, but the more this type of victory is reliant on other elements than the standard FPS mechanics, the more such a victory should belong in a different type of game (MOBA, RTS). Maybe you’re just looking in the wrong game genre for your gaming satisfaction? Or maybe you should try a hybrid game like SMNC or NS2.

I have to repeat here what I said in my post above, because I find myself adding arguments and arguments, while the old point is still the most poignant:

“The variation that TF2 offers in terms of classes and loadouts already exceeds that of any other competitive fps.”

A prime example is CS of course. How repetitive can things get? The game has many weapons, but ultimately each weapon is nearly the same. Hitscan rifles with slightly differing recoil, conefire, ammo count, and damage values. Basically every possible route and play on the standard maps has been explored, yet this game has had so many players, specators, tournaments, etc etc etc. Vanilla TF2 is to CS what pub TF2 is to vanilla TF2. Not trying to say that CS is the ideal symbol of FPS games, and that every game should use it as an example (I don’t like CS, I like TF2) but it’s a good example of a succeful formula. Once again, it seems that you’re more interested in deviating from the FPS-core as much as possible until you arrive in another genre.

It’s like advocating for powerups in a racing sim. Yes, it will add diversity/complexity and new strategies, but it’s not really cool if you have a perfect racing line, brake/acceleration timing and steering control, and suddenly lose to a player who doesn’t, who was bothered more by using the appropriate powerup at the right time.

[edit because I saw your post above just now: HL is more popular than 6v6 (not really sure if that’s true) doesn’t say anything. We all know why that is: HL is more akin to pub, to how the vast majority of this game’s adience is used to playing. To use my argument: CS is more popular than HL AND vanilla 6v6 … still doesn’t say much, does it?]

It’s still entertaining, but it won’t be for long. I just think it could be even better still. Just my opinion, as always!

The conclusion is the same as it has been in other threads about this subject: a game’s specific ruleset is not exact science. There is no absolute right or wrong. The rules are made up and people play the game according to its rules because they like it. We can make very strong points for and against certain changes, try to extrapolate its implications, and try to illustrate how the game would change and why that would be good or bad. Other people can then decide to agree or disagree. But let’s please keep this game an FPS first and foremost.

Last edited by skeej, 12 years ago

This is skeej: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bUMYpykEbkA/TIj6kICFFgI/AAAAAAAAAFY/WkaaXojhFQY/s320/scary+giant+brain+alien.jpg

Check out the size of his BRAIN!!

Last edited by Monkeh, 12 years ago

“using the TDH”
“using TDH”

Which is the more correct version? Please now discuss this question with equal vim and vigour as the unlock debate. Thank you.

Quoted from Monkeh

“using the TDH”
“using TDH”

Which is the more correct version? Please now discuss this question with equal vim and vigour as the unlock debate. Thank you.

As Crash says, adding ‘the’ makes it sound redunant, but one could argue the item’s name is “The Direct Hit”, where ‘The’ is part of the noun, and therefore ‘the TDH’ is not incorrect.

It still sounds silly though.

Quoted from Monkeh

Let’s not do this….at least, not anymore.

You seem to be suggesting this is a joke. I wholeheartedly disagree; this is a very serious and important matter. We want outsiders to watch our games, we want professional coverage, but we refuse correct usage of spelling and grammar?

Any outsider watching TF2 coverage will ideally discuss his new found glory with his friends. He wants to talk about how awesome this game is and he will ultimately start playing and perhaps even invite his friends to do the same!
You don’t want these people messaging their friends discussing the semantics of spelling and grammer regarding unlock names – that would be rather ridiculous and a complete waste of time and effort. To top it off it might even scare them away from our game.

This is why we don’t have unlocks at all.

In all fairness, in terms of ridiculousness (is that even a word?) it’s on the same level as the rest of the thread :p