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Quoted from ashkan

Would be nice to have your thoughts on the Reserve Shooter as well. It’s buginess in particular :P
Any of that fixed yet? How often does it happen anyway?

I don’t think that the buginess is a problem. I personally don’t see many people using it last season but as it has a bug i can see why it could be banned. Not sure if its been fixed. and not sure it happens all that often.

Quoted from Reservoir Dog

@ Jazz – I don`t understand why are you pushing this Enforcer thing so much? You don`t seem as a stupid guy, so why don`t you accept it is overpowered in every possible way? Light classes getting gunned down with two shots is not a small thing man. As a Medic player in HL I had problems with that weapon, and so did others, no matter which division we are talking about. Banning that weapon is not a random decision, just check comments about it on the last 3 pages.

People said so many good points about it, yet you keep continuing the discussion for some reason. Give it a rest man…

Thanks first off. But i push it because i really don’t see its that strong. Maybe i havent been as affected by it as you. I play demo so it’ll take another two hits to be killed by it but against the teams we play against i never saw and enforcer spy as a problem. If it was such a legit strategy of “business spy/gun ho spy” then why aren’t Colony, SNSD, May Contain Nuts running this?

In s1 we had this discussion about it being able to two shot and you have to be in close range to do that and it banks on you hitting both shots straight away. With rockets you can two shot in close range, huntsman you can one shot every class across a map but there not OP or ban worthy? Yes a spy has to be in close range to backstab but why in close range is a spy then switching to the gun to get a kill and not backstabbing? You take a gamble using your gun rather than using your knife. Guaranteed kill or maybe get a kill?

Also another OP weapon the wrangler. Remember how everyone was like this weapon is OP and OMG how can you destroy a sentry? Well we managed to overcome that and live with it. Haven’t we?

I push it so hard because if nobody said that it shouldn’t be banned then it would be banned and i feel that it shouldn’t be banned so i will continue the discussion until there is a point of view other than people saying, its OP piece of shite so good choice banning it or why cant you see its OP?

Quoted from Jazz

Thanks first off. But i push it because i really don’t see its that strong. Maybe i havent been as affected by it as you. I play demo so it’ll take another two hits to be killed by it but against the teams we play against i never saw and enforcer spy as a problem. If it was such a legit strategy of “business spy/gun ho spy” then why aren’t Colony, SNSD, May Contain Nuts running this?

Having played for and against all 3 of these teams I can say they all use it. Particularly the nuts spy cheetah often just runs around revolvering. I’ve played engineer against him and often he wasn’t even trying to be sneaky, just running up to me, 2 shotting me from any angle, I mostly had enough time to get one shot off.

Quoted from Beef

As I said these rules are only for this cup. We will continue our policy of allowing unlocks unless proven OP for season 2.

I am confuse, the title says Season 2 but now these are rules for the cup? So the weapons listed in the OP are definitely banned in the Experimental Cup, and we are now deciding if they should also be banned in Season 2?

Quoted from Jazz

With rockets you can two shot in close range, huntsman you can one shot every class across a map but there not OP or ban worthy?

But a soldier can’t walk invisibly past your team in order to get into position to fire those two rockets.

Quoted from Jazz

Yes a spy has to be in close range to backstab but why in close range is a spy then switching to the gun to get a kill and not backstabbing?

Because being 20 feet away rather than 1 massively increases your survivability and the likelihood of escaping. You don’t need to be all that close for the enforcer to do massive damage, it still does far more damage than the revolver from well outside the pyro’s flame range (the class supposed to be spy’s counter).

Quoted from Jazz

i will continue the discussion until there is a point of view other than people saying, its OP piece of shite so good choice banning it or why cant you see its OP?

Why do you consider “it’s OP” an invalid point of view, but “it’s not OP” a valid one?

My 2 cents:
Enforcer – the spy already has one extremely powerful weapon, a second is too much. Ban.
Machina – I can see this being annoying for if a group are pushing together, but lack of noscope does leave a sniper vulnerable to rushes, particularly if he’s being kredit to team and using jarate. Tentative allow, and see if it does turn out to be bad.
Pomson – far too spammable, it takes too little skill to use and can completely ruin a well-organised push by removing uber. Ban.
Philogistinator – the MMMPH charges far too quickly, and the heal rate during the taunt is obscene. Ban.
Spy-cicle – if a spy gets caught, he should die. That’s the appropriate risk for the huge reward of a successful backstab. This makes it almost impossible for a pyro to do his job properly and hunt down spies, and makes his spy-checking take >2 seconds per person rather than 0.2 seconds. Ban.
Detonator – if the weapon-switch-full-crit bug is fixed, allow. If it’s not, ban.
Reserve Shooter – as above, if the crit bug is fixed, I see no reason not to allow. If it’s still bugged, ban.

Not featured in OP:

Bombnomicon – interferes with YER stabs, can cause lag on people’s systems if several go off at once. Ban.
Set bonuses – Ban.

Quoted from Jazz

I feel that a spy losses that ability to one hit kill people and puts his stealth and position at risk drawing out the gun and puts at risk getting a guaranteed killed in the frame.

The spy doesn’t lose it, they still always have the option to stab instead. But if anything, it’s going into the back of the enemy pack for a kill that makes a spy lose positioning, not enforcer-sniping. You can keep position better if your effective range is greater, which is why decloak, two-shot with enforcer, cloak, and repeat is so powerful. With the enforcer, you get to choose the position from which you make the kill, whereas with the knife by necessity your kill positioning is dictated by where your target’s back is.

And since the first shot is 100% accurate, a spy with passable aim only needs to worry about the second shot not connecting. A spy without passable aim would risk missing their backstab about as much as they’d risk missing their enforcer shot.

Quoted from Jazz

And the holiday punch i believe this can stop an uber and to me thats stronger than an enforcer spy and more game changing.

If that’s true, then I agree it should be banned.

Quoted from almightybob

[…]

I am confuse, the title says Season 2 but now these are rules for the cup? So the weapons listed in the OP are definitely banned in the Experimental Cup, and we are now deciding if they should also be banned in Season 2?

Rules for the cup are the ones stated in the news post. Since we don’t want the cup to be focused on unlocks (just maps), we moved focus to a more general unlock discussion, and separated it from the map discussion. So this thread is for discussion unlocks in general, leading up to season 2, so it’s disconnected from the the experimental cup. We should’ve had them separate from the start, sorry for the confusion. I’ll see if I can make it clearer in the news post ;)

Quoted from Beef

[…]

The moment you put a game into a competitive format you change it from what people are used to. You decide what size a team should be and what class restrictions you have. This changes the game in a much greater way than any unlock ban can.

Competitive tf2 is for those players that look for something more, for the players that want to escape from the randomness public playing is/has become. It becomes about teamwork and coordination. It’s also for this reason that we change some of the variables, like no crits and no damagespread.

As for unlocks, when some are overpowered or not beneficiery in a teamplay environment I feel it is our duty to restrict them. Contacting valve about them isn’t feasible as this route takes months with no guarantees and some unlocks are just inherently broken and can only be fixed by making them into completely different weapons.

You’re claim that we change the game 99% of people love is also somewhat bogus as every few weeks new unlocks get thrown on the community whether we like them or not. A lot of players have gotten tired of having to play a different game every time valve decides to add something. I for one don’t enjoy the vast majority of recent unlocks, the last new set I thoroughly enjoyed was the first engineer update. It is for players like myself that this league was made. For those that want to play with some restrictions, for those that stopped enjoying what public play has become.

It is a pretty well known aspect from game-theory that a game needs fixed rules, valve has clearly violated this rule in its own game. We try to find a balance between allowing most unlocks but keeping the meta-game more or less intact. When an unlock breaks this, I feel it is our duty to ban it.

okay.
So if I understand you correctly , your decision is based upon 2 things:
1) Your opinion that the game is not fun as it is.
2) Your assumption thats majority of the community thinks like you.

about the 1st thing, its your opinion, and not only yours, and I respect that.
about the 2nd thing, I think its crucial to find out if that really the case, just if you are interested in making money out of your league. Best way would have been making a poll among all the casual and normal-gamers who populate tf2 servers.

to be honest , I am thinking my self about creating league, with money prizes and all, just without so many restrictions that in my opinion are bad.

offcourse that rules are important , but I think that its important to let players play with least restrictive enviorment.

I have to admit this argument is very amusing to me JDx. I have always been one to fight for a game with limited restrictions and now I’m argueing for them. Funny being on the other end for once.

If you think you could make a league which is even less restrictive than our highlander one I’d like to see it and fully support your attempt. Although I must admit I don’t have much hope for a successfull outcome. What would you do in terms of class restrictions? What will you do with random crits and damagespread? What will you do if a weapon turns out to suck the fun out of the game for a large majority?

PS: We have no interest in making any money out of this league, it’s all strictly voluntary.

Quoted from JDx

[…]
About concrete suggestions, I would have tryed 10vs10/11vs11/12vs12 leagues with the ruleset that 99 precent of the gamers in tf2 plays at current point in time. Without class restriction, without weapons restrictions, without hat restrictions, without damage spread/kritz restrictions. If in example after a period of time , everone starts to play only demo man and medics or stops playing all classes , then I would have contacted steam and ask them to fix imbalance as soon as possible.

First, why would we go through the effort of creating a league, setting rules, helping people solve disputes etc if it’s exactly the same as a pub.
Second, most if not all people I know mostly like pub apart from a few very obviously broken weapons, all we’re doing is taking those out.
Finally, contacting Valve doesn’t do anything most of the time and when it does it tends to take ages. We brought the overtime bug on gravelpit to their attention months ago, still not fixed. Enforcer, Wrangler, Tomislav, Natascha, Machina killing through Ubers and more. All been mentioned time and time again along with good suggestions to change them and either nothing has been done or it has taken months if not years.