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Soldier Weps, Overpowered or not?
Created 18th December 2009 @ 05:13
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200 hp – 125 hp. That’s the mobility prize. All the other stuff about fearsomeness, encouraging teamplay, fairly easy avoidance of TDH is, if you will pardon the expression, bullshit.
My proposed TDH fix (several possibilities, hopefully all possible or may not require much work to implement):
The main change would be that direct shots to those that are in the air are awarded with minicrits if the target has been off the ground for a certain duration of time. This would prevent trivial shots (like a target jumping or falling off of a crate) become minicrits and also means that more timing and possibly prediction is needed! This alone I shall call (A).
How long is a piece of string?
A heap is defined as a numerous pile of objects. If 20 objects form a heap, therefore 19 objects form a heap. If 19 ibjects form a heap, therefore 18 objects is a heap, etc etc.
Helpful, Kaidus. I don’t suppose it crossed your mind that changes to the weapon could be playtested until a suitable, balanced time was agreed upon. Of course not.
I don’t really like throwing around random numbers off the top of my head for the reason that it’s irrelevant to whether the idea is a good one or not most of the time and that the number I do throw out shouldn’t be the focus of discussion.
TDH is just as annoying as the FAN in some situations, but regardless of the minicrit, I think valve gave players a little bonus if you were able to do airshot, which requires some game-understanding as well. TDH is made for players who play demo mostly( I think), because of the projectile speed, which is faster, its more reflex requiring weapon. Sure prediction is a must for soldiers, but TDH lets you benefit from twitching and reflex-aim.
TDH is just as annoying as the FAN in some situations, but regardless of the minicrit, I think valve gave players a little bonus if you were able to do airshot, which requires some game-understanding as well. TDH is made for players who play demo mostly( I think), because of the projectile speed, which is faster, its more reflex requiring weapon. Sure prediction is a must for soldiers, but TDH lets you benefit from twitching and reflex-aim.
Actually it does the exact opposite, because now you have time to calculate trajectory before firing since your rocket will reach your desired point that much faster, unlike slow rockets that you have to fire at a much earlier time.
And to Moose, yes, but it’s mostly due to the same argument as goes for the FAN in that the speed of the rocket at mid-close range doesn’t allow for dodging only for _missing_. This means the outcome is in the hands of the soldier missing or hitting, as the scout does not have sufficient speed to actually dodge.
How would they have countered it? Only “counter” is staying on the ground, to prevent from a 1feet of the ground mini crit. But by staying on the ground they are vulnerable to being juggled, which my video shows, and as a result of that the mini crit hits.
By not jumping and just strafing left and right. They jumped straight, easy for you to predict where they will land. But indeed, the mini-crit breaks it. Remove them and it’s fine.
Last edited by GeaR,
RL is much better than TDH in most cases and the majority will keep using RL in competitive play for sure. So, I really cannot see TDH as a sidegrade. It is worse, it is more like a fun weapon.
TDH is only better against a _single_ target in close range, that’s all. However, people can still manage to complain about it, weird. If the max damage of TDH will be lowered, then RL will be better in all cases. Oh and air-crits, let’s remove them too, so nobody will use that weapon even in pubs.
I’d like to have less damage falloff with TDH so it could be reasonable in mid-high ranges. You still have to predict with TDH in these ranges and even very small errors will result with no damage at all. So, it should be more rewarding if you can land a direct hit in these ranges. Then, we can talk about decreasing the maximum damage & removing air-crits.
Helpful, Kaidus. I don’t suppose it crossed your mind that changes to the weapon could be playtested until a suitable, balanced time was agreed upon. Of course not.
I don’t really like throwing around random numbers off the top of my head for the reason that it’s irrelevant to whether the idea is a good one or not most of the time and that the number I do throw out shouldn’t be the focus of discussion.
It’s that term “agreed upon” that I find so difficult to get my head around. It would have to accomodate public play as well, and the average skill there is such that what deserves a “minicrit” (imo NOTHING does btw, but that’s another story) in 6v6 is such a freakin rarety that there is no way of ever satisfying both games. Either it’s OP as fuck in 6v6, or non-existant in public. Valve would never opt to disgruntle the public minions so you’re basically pulling on straws here.
Furthermore, a player could be 2 feet off the ground but travelling horizontally at an immense rate making the “airshot” here require quite some skill, but naturally if they were stationary on a horizontal axis and 2 feet up vertically it’s obviously easy as pie. How would you overcome that dilemma without going down the long, trecherous road of involving velocity in the airshot/not airshot calculation? I certainly would be very frustrated if I’d hit a shot that required double the skill of those that achieve minicrits but recived none myself, that’s a massive hole in the game. I can only imagine that this kind of scenario is why such low airshots are rewarded at the moment, because there simply is no way around this dilemma.
How about rockets that do scaling damage based on how far the rocket has travelled? So something that hits someone from 30000 miles away does 9999999 damage, but a shot from 2 feet away does 50 damage.
They call me vlad – argument solver.
Last edited by vlad_drac,
200 hp – 125 hp. That’s the mobility prize. All the other stuff about fearsomeness, encouraging teamplay, fairly easy avoidance of TDH is, if you will pardon the expression, bullshit.
Fine tale, male sibling.
How about rockets that do scaling damage based on how far the rocket has travelled? So something that hits someone from 30000 miles away does 9999999 damage, but a shot from 2 feet away does 50 damage.
They call me vlad – argument solver.
Again, that would be imbalanced because of the exact opposite reasons. Something in between would be better. For example, the direct hits should deal like 120-100hp damage changing with range, as 120 for point blank range. Then, mini-crits can be removed as well.
Well at least the last 4-5 pages of comments are constructive instead of random noob whine – not to say that all the posts before are, just a large number of them:D
I’m also starting to side towards the suggestion of lower damage dropoff at range as a compromise for reducing the max damage of a direct hit for TDH. I’m glad the discussion has moved on to this rather than continual suggestions that splash radius should be increased. If you don’t realize the severe negative implications of this by now, you probably never will.
Berserker’s point about the ease of hitting scouts at close range with huntsman is imo currently the best example for quantifying how effective TDH can be at close range.
Gibbing scouts is obviously going to cause more and more controversy as an increasing number of scouts experience it and get annoyed. I know it would annoy me when playing scout more than 1-hit-kill-pipes were annoying back in the day, so reducing max direct hit damage to below 125 seems fair when combined with a smaller drop-off in damage of ranged hits.
TDH excels at damage-dealing which is a far more universal skill, and therefore makes TDH more powerful.
I disagree with this assertion. The normal RL still appears to be superior in terms of dealing higher overall damage over the course of a game, the main difference being that TDH allows high levels of damage to be achieved QUICKLY which is what gives it a higher kill-converting potential, as I’ve already mentioned. Compton sort of backed this up in his own words.
Last edited by KOVACS,
I disagree with this assertion. The normal RL still appears to be superior in terms of dealing higher overall damage over the course of a game, the main difference being that TDH allows high levels of damage to be achieved QUICKLY which is what gives it a higher kill-converting potential, as I’ve already mentioned. Compton sort of backed this up in his own words.
I’ll actually apologize, my wording wasn’t very precise on this point, at least. When it comes to TDH it excels at burst-damage on single-targets, which is far more likely to award a kill, even if the splash of the normal RL awards a higher number of total damage dealt. If it has high killing potential in almost any setting then that is a more universal ability that is very delicate in terms of balance.
Fine tale, male sibling.
He has a point.
Basically, you say it’s fine that the soldier is as powerful as he is, because to compensate for that scouts now have to wait for someone else to take their attention, come in greater number or be “ingenious.” This is not balance. If scout was to be immensely powerful against the soldier, I could not justify that by saying “now soldier will have to think a bit, and maybe work together to take him out!”
For me, I see soldier as someone who excels at going head-to-head in battle situations, holding a frontier, effective at launching an assault and offensive, leading pushes and providing great protection to the rest of their team. I see scouts as those who finish off the wounded, the ones who stray from their group, and surprise attack – they are supposed to excel at 1v1 combat, and thus the solo scout vs. soldier matchup should be fairly balanced, with the soldier having a greater advantage the further away the fight begins (as he can control the distance from further away), and vice versa.
You obviously think the soldier should be a very hard counter to the scout class, but I wouldn’t dare to say that demos are a hard counter to soldiers – yet you still insist that it is because of the class-based game that the soldier should be a hard counter to the scout in the first place.
Last edited by BERSERKER,
As far as I can perceive it, atredies is implying that the soldier is overpowered/imbalanced vs scouts and that the factors discussed in this thread are irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not this is true.
Then again, I didn’t sleep last night so my perception could be grossly misinformed.
Last edited by KOVACS,
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