Forum

“and being unbiased doesn’t make your opinion any more “right”.”

The quote above it true, BUT being biased CAN make your opinion LESS right. Being biased CLOUDS your judement, no matter how superior a human you may be.

There are so many professional CoD2/4 players who have openly admitted to being cheaters, but regardless of this they are still superb players at heart.

“From my understanding, there is 1 demo of 1 map accusing this player of cheating, which is controversial in itself. The main advocate of this demo as proof has a thoroughly biased opinion.”

I don’t disagree with this. I’m not really trying to make any sort of point about this particular case and saying that the admins accusing in this case are right. Indeed, 1 demo of 1 map is pretty shakey grounds to accuse anyone of hacking unless it’s utterly blatent. If the admins are biased, this makes it even worse.

I do understand that people can pull off shots that would make a lot of people suspicious naturally, although they are for most people few and far between. Case in point, I’ve killed plenty of people with randomly detted stickytraps which doesn’t scream so much “triggerbot” as “blind luck” and yet someone could upload a single demo where this luckily happened several times in one game and accuse me.

However my point about LANs is merely one about proof. If an anti-cheat admin has conclusive proof that in a game on 18th Sept 2009 that someone was hacking, saying that you saw him playing at LAN on the 12th Oct 2009 and he wasn’t hacking doesn’t say ANYTHING about the case. I could download an aimbot, use it once and then never again and I could claim I had a “lucky” day (let’s pretend for the sake of this that I can actually aim, which I can’t). People seeing me play on any other day doesn’t contribute anything to a counter-argument that in that particular match I was cheating. In short: you can’t disprove that he was hacking one day by saying he wasn’t on a different day.

However if the evidence is rather weak, say a few shots that might have been lucky or an aimbot, then playing to the same strong standard on LAN without aimbots (it’s still possible to cheat on LAN but let’s assume he wasn’t) is a strong argument that he wasn’t. That is why I said it can’t “conclusively prove” rather than saying contributes nothing.

We should make a poll to decide if players agree being banned without any proof ( obviously not) but that will really make admins pay some more attention to this .

“From the things said by the people trying to get their friend unbanned”

“Fixed that for you Jones.

Beyond Jonni taking the piss none of the AC admins have said anything let alone what he will be banned for yet. Still good to see we can get an eight page thread on the wrong leagues forums covering the exact some points we get every time someone gets caught cheating.”

Krakyn, I’m not going to say: “From my point of view, I think you’re wrong.” The reason is because you are wrong. There has been a statement given by the Wireplay admin who was responsible for this individual being banned from the wireplay league. There have also been inputs from un-related (un-biased) people viewing the demo and giving their opinions on it. Xzar and iller are not friends with this person. Neither am I (I never heard of him before). Your partially right about this forum post being on the wrong SECTION (see I corrected what you meant to say – 2 can play that game) of the forum. If this was on the “General TF2 section” it would make your point invalid. Last but not least, this is NOTHING LIKE any of the other ban cases because everyone CAN actually see the evidence used to ban the player.

p.s. Vali, I see what you were saying now. I think you’re right. I mis-understood your argument as being specific to this individual case. I don’t think speaking generally really solves this issue though.

Valis wall of text makes a lot more sense than anyone elses.
I’m not going to create one because I cba, but really? Eight pages of what? Nothing constructive.

In the beginning post, Dorkan said that the AC admins “decide our tf2 careers”. While I think this is poorly worded, it is correct. Why can’t we just leave it for the AC admins?

Stop raging at each other and correcting each others grammar (leave that to dunc and myself thank you) and just get on with tf2. All the walls are created by people who don’t actually know the guy.

word shintaz

I hope you realise that threads like this are utterly pointless. I don’t think a single person here has anti-cheat experience and none of you know what you’re looking for. How long you’ve been playing this game and at what level is pretty much irrelevant and being unbiased doesn’t make your opinion any more “right”.

I agree that threads like this are quite pointless, they usually all look more or less the same. My point in writing here is to stress the importance of the principle “innocent until proven guilty”, that noone should be banned without sufficent evidence.
I downloaded the demo from Granary and in my opinion there is nothing fishy about it.

How long you have been playing this game is definetely not irrelevant. You learn to recognize different types of moves and playstyles and get a feeling for what is fishy and what is not. (It would, by the way, be nice if anyone of you who thinks this Granary demo is evidence enough could point out some places in the demo where he clearly uses aimbot)

And I also want to say that you are completely right in that being unbaised doesn’t make you right. However the chances for biased incorrect statetements increase if you know the person in question.

You have some good points about the nature of the aimbots.
However (this is very important), ANY players behaviour could be “explained” in terms of aimbots and cheats.
“Ok, he jumped there and suddeny shot the enemy in the head. There is a aimbot that does just that”.
“Ok, he missed a shot and then hit the enemy with two consecutive shots. This is precisely the programming of that aimbot.”
And so on.
The principle is the same as when some people try to find hidden encrypted messages in the Bible and the Koran and so on. If you have enough ways of “decrypting” the text you will undoubtely find a lot of “hidden messages”You have exactly the same principle at work here : If you have a list big enough of movement an aiming patterns you will undoubfully find some of those patterns if you look at an arbitrary demo of a random non-cheating player.

(the only right thing Iller said)

Then I would like to know exactly what I have said which you think is wrong.
Since I haven’t really claimed anything, but just tried to stand up for the principle “innocent until proven guilty”. I find it hard to belive I could have been “wrong” in anything I said.

stop posting 8 pages of back and forth, flat-out CARING about this stupid video game good god some dude got banned from a game whose relevance is tanking stop it just stop it quit caring oh my GOD i hate you all