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Season format discussion HL

Created 11th February 2021 @ 22:56

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Motori

NDF
BOJO

Am i the only one that that feels like seasons are super luck based? For example in open HL there is about 30 teams and only 5 matches and don’t get me started with how every week is different map. With so little sample size there is so much dependency on luck for example one team could get a bad team againts them on their best map while another could have it totally opposite. And same is for the amount of matches one team could get really lucky with their matchup’s and one could get destroyed with them.

Your solutions?

I know that nobody does this for their own living so we can’t just have 30 match regular series but i think there are few things that we can improve on. For starters we should have more matches on open because its a larger division i propose increasing it to 7 weeks this in return will have less randomness. Second change i propose is having an pick and ban system for each weeks maps so every team gets to choose what maps they wanna play.


Last edited by Motori,

idk man just unlucky bro

HartzFartz

(ETF2L Donator)
opa!
0FO

idk man just unlucky bro

damn man that’s unlucky bro

AlesKee

HA

I propose you spend your time getting better instead of shitting out nerd essays

Amaterasu

CD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVeAEwrL1Ts

Quoted from Motori

I know that nobody does this for their own living so we can’t just have 30 match regular series but i think there are few things that we can improve on. For starters we should have more matches on open because its a larger division i propose increasing it to 7 weeks this in return will have less randomness. Second change i propose is having an pick and ban system for each weeks maps so every team gets to choose what maps they wanna play.

With a pick/ban system you can just try to avoid a map forever instead of just practicing it in scrims. Sure almost every team has at least one map that they aren’t very comfortable on, but to become a good team overall that is deserving of a playoff spot imo you have to get out of your comfort zone and practice those maps until you at least get consistent teamplay on them. Two more weeks means more maps to learn as well.
It also makes comparing results and team standings difficult when everyone is playing different maps and gamemodes each week.

DCS

(Legend)
CD

Quoted from AlesKee

I propose you spend your time getting better instead of shitting out nerd essays

Stay klassy!

Citrus

Quoted from AlesKee

I propose you spend your time getting better instead of shitting out nerd essays

that’s not very nice, but what else to expect from ex-admin
Last season with 7 weeks had 100ish teams participating. After adding 5-week system in s12 the highest nubmer of teams was i think 90ish in season 22. I guess if we reach 100 teams again bringing back 7-week season will be a good thing. However since everyone responsible for hl decisions has 2-digit iq this will never happen. Enjoy.


Last edited by Citrus,

Aoshi

(Head Admin)
tavi
m a s o n

Quoted from Citrus

[…]
that’s not very nice, but what else to expect from ex-admin
Last season with 7 weeks had 100ish teams participating. After adding 5-week system in s12 the highest nubmer of teams was i think 90ish in season 22. I guess if we reach 100 teams again bringing back 7-week season will be a good thing. However since everyone responsible for hl decisions has 2-digit iq this will never happen. Enjoy.

You calling out somebody for being toxic but at the same time calling all admins that ever made HL decisions stupid is quite conflicting. Maybe you should rethink your statement as it loses all value it has by doing so.

Aoshi

(Head Admin)
tavi
m a s o n

Quoted from Motori

I know that nobody does this for their own living so we can’t just have 30 match regular series but i think there are few things that we can improve on. For starters we should have more matches on open because its a larger division i propose increasing it to 7 weeks this in return will have less randomness. Second change i propose is having an pick and ban system for each weeks maps so every team gets to choose what maps they wanna play.

There is still an equal amount of randomness in a 7 week season, there is just additional time to counter balance it.
The size of the group should correlate with how many teams are required for a swiss system to function optimally. In theory if only wins and losses were possible for a 5 week season you’d need 32 teams. For a 7 week season this would be 128 teams,

Our scenario is a variation of this due to draws, golden caps and similar being possible allowing for deviations of that standard 1/0 scoring system.

While it might feel random, which the week 1 & 2 matches to an extent are(We try to use AP scoring to counter balance this). It does allow for better matchups starting at week 3 allowing teams to fight other teams with similar track records. Meaning that teams shouldn’t consistently roll/get rolled and allow for an overall more positive game experience.

The only possible alternative to this is switching to a round robin system for open as well. However the distribution of teams within such groups would fall fully onto the shoulders of admins who would speculatively have to try and balance out the groups as they don’t have insight in how strong each team is. Which is a very big thing for the open tiers as a lot of new/less experienced players are within these tiers. Which most likely is equally random :D.

Another set of side effects of round robin being that as soon as one team drops from a competition all other teams lose a match from an already shorter season. Also requiring an exact 6*x amount of teams to properly fill up divisions making limits to how many teams can effectively play in case it doesnt match up. As example for S23 this would have caused 3 teams to have to sit out the season.

I hope this gives some additional insight into the usefulness of having a swiss system and its limits. We always try to keep open minded and make adjustments to our systems if possible.


Last edited by Aoshi,

Citrus

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]

You calling out somebody for being toxic but at the same time calling all admins that ever made HL decisions stupid is quite conflicting. Maybe you should rethink your statement as it loses all value it has by doing so.

I could write a giant text about every hl admin mistake i witnessed for 6 years playing etf2l, but that would be very time-consuming. Instead Ill just point out that in 2010 etf2l hosted an event called “Highlander Challenge”. More than 900 teams from all over the world took part which is 3 times more than any 6s season. Considering that highlander team needs 9 players, it had crazy 4.5 times more participants than biggest 6s season. Did etf2l build on such great success? Or did they treat highlanger as pityful, second-rate gamemode with less prizepools, less tournaments, less attention? We all know the answer. It took etf2l 7 years to get highlander from 900+ teams in 2010 to 65 teams in season 13.
I said “people responsible for hl decisions” not etf2l hl admins for a reason. I believe that the fault of team leaders and players not going up against wrong decisions is the same as fault of admins making them.
I have to admit that I was harsh and not everyone responsible for hl decisions is stupid. However a few people who weren’t stupid didn’t change anything so it doesnt really make a difference.

Citrus

Quoted from Aoshi

[…]
I hope this gives some additional insight into the usefulness of having a swiss system and its limits. We always try to keep open minded and make adjustments to our systems if possible.

The problem of having a round-robin for mid/low/open divisions is that its very hard to balance round-robin groups since its almost impossible and very labour-intensive to define team skill level. With round robin it’s much easier for sandbaggers to sneak into lower div and rape everyone.


Last edited by Citrus,

Motori

NDF
BOJO

Quoted from Amaterasu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVeAEwrL1Ts

[…]
With a pick/ban system you can just try to avoid a map forever instead of just practicing it in scrims. Sure almost every team has at least one map that they aren’t very comfortable on, but to become a good team overall that is deserving of a playoff spot imo you have to get out of your comfort zone and practice those maps until you at least get consistent teamplay on them. Two more weeks means more maps to learn as well.
It also makes comparing results and team standings difficult when everyone is playing different maps and gamemodes each week.

Why are then some maps worth more points than others. For example pl_vigil is worth 6 points and coalplant is worth 3 so the better tactic is to practice vigil over these koth maps

supra

(League Admin)
rdznk
ᵍaₑtᵃ

Quoted from Motori

[…]

Why are then some maps worth more points than others. For example pl_vigil is worth 6 points and coalplant is worth 3 so the better tactic is to practice vigil over these koth maps

It’s due to amount of time spent while gaming, the only fair option for playing Stopwatch games for both teams is to play ABBA and it takes comparable amount of time to two KOTHs or one KOTH and one CP map like Gullywash.

Dwapking

nf.
COGU

Quoted from supra

[…]
It’s due to amount of time spent while gaming, the only fair option for playing Stopwatch games for both teams is to play ABBA and it takes comparable amount of time to two KOTHs or one KOTH and one CP map like Gullywash.

That is not the case during the most important games (playoffs). Every map is valued equally there as it should be. I think the only reason why stopwatch is worth double points during the normal season is because etf2l wants to assign 6 points every week.

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