Forum
Official ruling on Saloon.tf interaction
Created 31st March 2015 @ 02:05
Add A Reply Pages: « Previous 1 ... 3 4 5 6 Next »
Quoted from CHERRY
Also please do keep in mind that I in no way expect you to do anything more than banning the users caught red handed or even discouraging them.
As stated before by perm:
You’re free to report incidents to us where players/teams are suspected to have fixed matches based off of their bets and we will investigate it no problem, but we will not penalize players for just the act of betting on their own matches.
The bets themselves are irrelevant to us, all we care about is matches not being rigged.
The problem is that once again it’s subject to your opinion wether the match was thrown or not.
You can see it without my reports don’t you? ;)
It’d make sense for me to care about reporting bets and stuff if you were prohibiting them entirely instead of saying: “You betted against yourself, and you lost, but it doesn’t look like you were throwing since you put quite an ok performance”
CHERRY, I think the concerns raised by ETF2L here are very valid, and perhaps cause enough for you to consider establishing general and universal rules regarding this. That would remove the element of admin’s discretion; you would be clear in what you allow and don’t allow and thus your users aren’t subject to the ETF2L admins, they’re subject to you. If said users also use ETF2L they’re, naturally, subject to their rules in addition to yours. That doesn’t affect your work though, not as long as you’re consistent.
Quoted from evokje
Don’t let players bet on games that involve them.
^
This. It’s beyond retarded that you are even stating officially as an etf2l admin that you are free to bet for or against your own team.
Pretty distasteful to even have any kind of doubt in this matter when 99% of the esports and sports leagues in the world outright ban betting on the games you are involved in.
It must be a joke surely?
Last edited by Kaneco,
Quoted from quintosh
what is wrong with betting on your own team? hello?
I know we’re not a professional e-sport™ but we should strive to be as professional as possible within our own possibilities (specially with matchmaking around the corner) and in any professional sport or esport betting is completely disallowed in games you’re involved in, some leagues/federations even ban betting on the same discipline altogether (ex: swimming federation disallows swimmers from betting in any swimming events).
Isn’t that saying something in terms of professionalism? I mean, betting for your team is definitely less malicious or even not at all, but it’s a question of principle and drawing the line and I think the line here should be drawn in the games you are involved in, whether it is betting for or against, doesn’t matter. Don’t we strive for professionalism and good competition?
I mean betting on yourself depends on a sport.
It’s not seen as something bad in boxing and horse racing, but it’s definitely not allowed in tennis and football.
Last edited by CHERRY,
my personal opinion on this:
-betting on your match
I’d say betting on your own team winning is grey area, but should be possible for the exact same reason why betting on your opponents should not.
Creating incentives. With players betting on their own team, they invest something extra, and are willing to win their match regardless. Betting on the opponents creates a conflict of interested and when your team loses it’s tough to not point fingers and ask how this is allowed.
-League enforcement
Obviously it’s off-site. Saloon has it’s own rules and is an entirely different organisation than ETF2L. The problem is that saloon might not be the only betting outlet ever and those might not be as vigilant on any fishy situations as Cherry.
I feel that we have to (even though it’s broadly covered by the ruleset) specify betting/bribing or match-fixing not being allowed and punished if caught.
We want all players to do their best in their officials, and with players being able to create a situation where they gain something by losing is going directly against this line of thought.
Last edited by kKaltUu,
Quoted from CHERRY
It’d make sense for me to care about reporting bets and stuff if you were prohibiting them entirely instead of saying:“You betted against yourself, and you lost, but it doesn’t look like you were throwing since you put quite an ok performance”
You can’t deny the fact that any penalty applied on your betting site will prevent people from betting more than anything that we could ever do.
Simply ban people from betting on their own games there, I don’t understand why you’d need us (or any other league) to do such a thing.
People argue that having such a rule in the league would deter players from betting on their own matches, but that’s just insanely optimistic.
I can think of two ways off the top of my head that would enable me to bet on my own matches without leaving a single trace or any proof of it happening, it doesn’t take a genius to come up with ways that circumvent any possible detection.
Do you really think that other people who could potentially profit big from a rigged match would stop at the thought of breaking a rule on ETF2L, or any other league, when they’ve decided to ignore the one over at saloon to begin with?
ETF2L most definetely does not approve of teams rigging matches (for their personal benefit or otherwise), although proving such a thing is a ludicrously difficult task, with or without bets.
All of that being said you’ve raised some points that are worth considering, the fraud rule is still subject to change just like our stance towards the matter.
Though a public forum isn’t ideal to discuss things like these, so I will refrain from continuing to do so before I get baited by the mentally challenged.
Quoted from ducky
[…]
You can’t deny the fact that any penalty applied on your betting site will prevent people from betting more than anything that we could ever do.
Simply ban people from betting on their own games there, I don’t understand why you’d need us (or any other league) to do such a thing.
People argue that having such a rule in the league would deter players from betting on their own matches, but that’s just insanely optimistic.
I can think of two ways off the top of my head that would enable me to bet on my own matches without leaving a single trace or any proof of it happening, it doesn’t take a genius to come up with ways that circumvent any possible detection.
Do you really think that other people who could potentially profit big from a rigged match would stop at the thought of breaking a rule on ETF2L, or any other league, when they’ve decided to ignore the one over at saloon to begin with?
ETF2L most definetely does not approve of teams rigging matches (for their personal benefit or otherwise), although proving such a thing is a ludicrously difficult task, with or without bets.
All of that being said you’ve raised some points that are worth considering, the fraud rule is still subject to change just like our stance towards the matter.
Though a public forum isn’t ideal to discuss things like these, so I will refrain from continuing to do so before I get baited by the mentally challenged.
It’s like banning reddit accounts, it does nothing ;)
The real stuff to lose is here. And all of the two methods you have in mind likely require interaction with a third party who may later try and blackmail you.
However given that the rule is subject to change I will not discuss the topic heavily too at this moment and wait for an official statement or an update on that matter.
Quoted from ducky
[…]
I can think of two ways off the top of my head that would enable me to bet on my own matches without leaving a single trace or any proof of it happening, it doesn’t take a genius to come up with ways that circumvent any possible detection.
“I can think of a bunch of ways off the top of my head that I could steal that pack of gums in the supermarket without being caught”
“I can think of a bunch of ways off the top of my head I could scam some items without being caught”
It’s basically what you are saying and it’s a rather weak argument to say the least. Just because it’s possible to do it doesn’t mean everyone will do it or even that it’s ethical to do it. A league should have a strong stance on this because you are the basis on where this all works from, with a strong stance from the base it’s easier to keep things in control from the top. Not mentioning that it’s horrible PR to be publicly saying that betting for or against your own games is ok.
If you strongly enforce 1 year bans for people who bet on games they’re involved in, I guarantee you that would deter much more people from wrongdoing than a saloon ban.
just make a ruling saying any players found betting on their matches will be penalised/banned xyz. its really not that hard jesus.
Quoted from Oxy
[…]
Equally without the rule I could just play around the rules to be a massive dick and then just say ‘well it’s not in the rules’.
Then fix the gaps in the rules by keeping them up to date and constantly re-assessing them every season. What incidents caused controversies, what changes in the game/update could cause potential for abuse?
“I can see this new thing has been added, do I need to re-assess rule number 45.3?” No/Yes, have a discussion, make a decision.
Quoted from CHERRY
[…]
It’s not about a one third party website.
It’s about a general action that can be commited by ETF2L players and affects the league, it’s prestige, viewership and results. There is no clear rule about it even though smaller leagues like ozfortress adjusted and if you expect me to report the players to ETF2L at least state that it’s not allowed (and what are boundaries), cause while I’m all for banning the ones that bet against themselves on Saloon.tf I won’t support making rules on case by case basis out of thin air as it’s both not fair and abusive especially when admins had so long to adjust.The main issue I raise that you didn’t notice is that right now noone even has a slight idea if they can bet on their own team. Admin discretion shouldn’t be used for anything more than major scandals that admins couldn’t prepare for.
Here’s some info about how it looks everywhere else: https://books.google.pl/books?id=X7G8BAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA96&ots=wmnZrnojqE&dq=match%20fixing%20suspended&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
And if you prefer illustrations here are examples of scandals and penalties from more or less serious leagues and federations both “real” sports and eSports:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/03/25/sports/tennis/ap-ten-itf-match-fixing.html?_r=0
http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-suspends-19-more-csgo-players-for-match-fixing/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24098876
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/43321/epsilon-suspends-cs-go-team-over-match-fixing-allegation/index.html
http://www.espnfc.com/el-salvador/story/1530297/el-salvador-suspends-22-players-during-match-fixing-probe
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/bracciali-starace-suspended-40-days-in-match-fixing-inquiry/ar-AA9gW01
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/28813-matchfixing-scandal-investigation-continues-players-suspended-temporarily
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/esports/stories/1331701599690/gungfubanda-serving-time-in-starcraft-jail-match-fixing
http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/222950-ipl-suspended-ips-officer-who-probed-betting-and-match-fixing-scandal-alleges-cover-up
http://www.classic97.net/sports/sierra-leone-match-fixing-captain-kargbo-one-15-suspended-16-07-14[…]
You can’t play around a good ruleset. How many widely used loopholes do you have in your country’s laws?
Could not agree more, there is enough material here you could use to research a Match Fixing Policy. Why not just keep it simple and copy ESEA with slightly different wording?
http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=content&d=league_rules_tf2
13. Exploits and Infractions:
* Betting – If a player, team manager, or team sponsor is found betting on their own match, regardless of their bet placement, the league match will be overturned and the offending player, team manager, or team organization that placed the bet will be banned for a calendar year. This also encompasses placing bets with a secondary account or through a third party. We will also be offering an incentive for coming forward with indisputable evidence of a player placing bets directly or through a third party. All disputes will be handled on a case by case basis.
Edit that to suit needs. Easy.
Quoted from ducky
I’ll clear this up once and for all:
ETF2L does not care who, when, how or why someone bets on their or any other teams results as long as the match isn’t rigged/fixed/intentionally thrown (i.e. played to a completely or partially pre-determined result).
The making of an anti-fraud rule is in the process BUT we are not going to regulate our userbases interaction with saloon.tf, or any third party site for that matter.
Just think for a second:
What means of investigation do we have to trace and prove that someone asked his friend to bet on a match for him, or that someone used an alt to bet on his own matches?
The answer is none. It’s pointless to add a rule that we can’t enforce.
Try enforcing it????
Means of investigation? You can add all sorts of means of investigation, just use your imagination.
State: “If you suspect somebody of match-fixing…etc etc please report to admin”….
Person A suspects person B of match-fixing, gives you evidence of chatlogs or suspicious betting patterns between friends betting on a particular outcome…etc. Chatlogs might prove guilt as the person is admitting to rulebreaking, so you then have a detailed and clear levels of punishment, apply the punishment to fit the offence according to the policy.
Sounds enforceable to me?
Can even go further, ask for screenshots of this, chat history of that…it’s your league, your rules, make them up. If you think it’s reasonable for players to record demos of their games and keep them for 2 months after a game http://etf2l.org/matches/51634/#comment-397895, it’s certainly reasonable to put suspects of match-fixing on a probation where they must report every bet they do, track their backpack history each day for 2 weeks…etc
If you’re going to set that as your stance on the issue, I could start manipulating outcomes and know you can’t do anything to stop me as the league have made it clear they have no idea what they’re doing on the issue. It doesn’t take much to send an email to ESEA/ESL and ask for some advice on the issue, or do what Cherry’s done and research how other organizations deal with this particular issue.
Add A Reply Pages: « Previous 1 ... 3 4 5 6 Next »
content rss