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Will the mod which reverts the balance changes from Love and War be used?
Created 19th June 2014 @ 17:14
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Quoted from w3doe
[…]All you are doing is being a prick and mocking his opinion just because this wont be a problem to You.
That is Solid in a nutshell. He will keep nsulting people instead of actually prove a point here, because it’s much easier.
Quoted from olBaa
[…]
As Engineer is such a hard class to kill
I went to a badwater pub, set up a lvl3 sentry on first point. In the five times I did it, BLU was unable to even cap first before time run out. I had 3 Demomen trying to destroy my sentry and it never went down.
But hey let’s keep closing our ears and sing lalalala while piles of evidence, tests, facts, numbers, results and so on keep on stacking up!
Quoted from Fuxx
I went to a badwater pub,
ahh the powerful evidence
If you mained demo before the nerf and is now giving judgement before even testing it correctly then you are not looking at it objectively. Yes it sucks your class got nerfed. Yes you have the right to complain. but if you dont like it then dont play, or change class. spare your judgement to people have figured out how to deal with it (which is already happening looking at some demomen having 10k damage with 70% pipes). But in the end its just a game, but it turned out to be the game that you didnt fall in love with.
Our whole competetive community is so self righteous jesus
new meta, interesting
I honestly love these kind of updates, you see some people shouting shit that the game is ruined, some people shouting shit that it’s saved and after a while people start to come out and say who gives a shit, just play.
And in the end, people do just play.
PS: That Twitch Invitational thing last night/morning was fucking amazing and if that kind of game is what’s going to happen in the future then I’ll definitely watch more TF2 again.
Last edited by FUN POLICE RUINS TF2,
Quoted from toogyboogy
Our whole competetive community is so self righteous jesus
Agreed.
valve FINALLY made demo what he was supposed to be… too bad they were 7 years late so this is why the shitstorm is happening.
Demo is finally a OVERLY DEFENSIVE class meaning your offensive powers are limited to grenade launcher spam.
There are lots of new wonderful oppurtunities now. HL doesn’t depend on heavy and demo now… ALL the classes have the possibility of being a strong force for their team, carry soldiers will be a thing now.
As for 6s, I think passive scout and agro scout meta will be replaced with double agro scouts with demo being extremely protective for the pocket-medic combo.
But you know I never play 6s and demo so my opinion might as well be retarded.
As for wrangler sentries:
It has become easier than ever to spam the sentry from afar. DH soldiers are even more safe now. Also, snipe the engineer, backstab him, get a Heavy up close, pipe the sentry with your Demo, sap the sentry while your team attacks, focus fire. You don’t need stickies for everything.
Quoted from Selek
As for wrangler sentries:
It has become easier than ever to spam the sentry from afar. DH soldiers are even more safe now. Also, snipe the engineer, backstab him, get a Heavy up close, pipe the sentry with your Demo, sap the sentry while your team attacks, focus fire. You don’t need stickies for everything.
As a horribly shitty enginner (2nd)main I can agree with this
A huge portion of my sentry deaths are snipers.
Time for my retarded and way too long wall of text.
I’ll try not to mention pipes here since everyone has heard that argument 8999 times already.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Game was meant to be fast-paced. Check.
It actually is more fast-paced now since there will be less spam in chokes. Check mate.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Game is based around few core classes. Check.
That wont change. Check mate.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Game is mostly based around Demoman as main damage dealer. Check.
Now it is build around the pocket and the demo being main damage dealers. How is that a bad thing? Check mate.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Demoman is a core of the team, alongside the Medic. Check.
A lot of european teams play that way yes but as you can see with NA teams it’s possible to play with a demo that is roaming a bit more. That means the pocket has to play pocket again :ooo Check mate.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Now here’s the rest of the equation:
Take a Demoman and remove 75% of his initial damage.
First of all that’s wrong. A well aimed sticky will still do up to 70dmg during the first 2seconds(it’s able to do 138 time period is over) so that’s actually about 50% dmg reduction instead of 75%. That also means that the demo is still able to instakill a scout with 2 well placed stickies. Surely it’s not as easy as before since you just had to spam in the scouts general direction but it’s still possible. In spam battles and uber pushes he has a support role now and has to play a little more defensive than usual but it’s nothing out of the ordinary and doesn’t make him useless at all.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Renders him completetly useless. Since not only 6v6, but TF2 as a whole is an incredibly fast-paced game, 2 seconds of wait for the Sticky to prime is way too long. So long an incapacitated 90 year old on a wheelchair could move out of the blast radius of a sticky before it reaches its full damage.
Sure, you can detonate before 2 seconds of full prime time, but it deals 20-30 damage each stick, which will only sway the 90 year old on a wheelchair slightly to the left.
Wonderful analogy but sadly it kind of misses the point. Again a well aimed sticky can do up to 70 damage still. Surely you’ll see a lot of those 19-30 dmg stickies from now on but that’s what the whole nerf was about right? It was about the demo not being able to m1+m2 people on mid range without any real danger. He can still do that btw his aim has to be a lot better now. Yes, the demo will become less important on mid fights since he can’t do as much damage anymore but he’s still very valuable as a damage support while the soldiers become the main damage dealer during middles. Again how is that a bad thing?
Quoted from jakeowaty
This basically kills 6v6 as we knew it. The game has a long history, and as far as I remember, it always had the same class composition. You think why the fuck did it stand such a tough test of time? Because it was made and changed towards class balance and equality, with roles on the team.
But it doesn’t kill 6s at all? That baseless assumption just shows that you have never actually played a game of 6v6 with the “new” demo. I played some scrims with my team yesterday and our demo(albeit being absolutely terrible with pipes) still managed to put out 362 and 340 on snake and gran respectively. After the game he said that while he had to use more pipes than usual it didn’t really have that much of an impact on gameplay except for midfights. Yes it’s only 1 game and it doesn’t necessarily have to be representative for everyone but ash’s logs also show that it’s still very much possible to go above 300/400 as demo. Is that lower than before the nerf? Of course it is but as a matter of fact kr4tos still top damaged on gran and only came behind our pocket on snake. Demos will now be outdamaged by pockets more often than usual. Big deal. Another thing you’ve mentioned is the eventual change in class composition. First of all it wont happen on 5cp maps because demo is still very valuable on those kind of maps. So what maps are left? Viaduct and turbine. Yes, we might see some changes on viaduct(a good example being the epsilon heavy) but that doesn’t mean that demo is not going to be played at all anymore. We always see a lot of soldier/scout offclassing in certain maps and noone seems to have a problem with that. On turbine I’m pretty sure demo will still be used due to the importance of sticky traps.
Quoted from jakeowaty
Now let’s take chess, the game that has been around for goddamn centuries. Well established meta, enjoyable strategies and moves, still competetive for around 800 years. Now let’s take the Queen out of the game, because it’s fucking OP, omg, pls, and replace her with yet another pawn. Sure, you can play. Sure, meta will change. But will it make the game enjoyable? Would it change the meta enough to be still competetive.
Oh a chess analogy, how original… Also your example would be the same as just removing the demo from the game and playing 5v5 instead of 6v6 now. You just can’t compare chess and tf2.
Quoted from jakeowaty
People keep saying that 6’s is stagnant… And that’s perfectly fine. People keep playing it, people want to play it in a certain way. Now take away a core of the game, like 40% of it and expect them to carry on like that. It won’t happen. It will slowly deteriorate and get boring, because you remove a class that was able to do turn arounds single-handedly using enemy team’s mistakes and his own wits. You can’t deny that. Any class is able to do it, but picking off enemy Demo has always been major cue to push a point, for both sides.
So where exactly did you get that 40% from? Please don’t just come up with random percentages for no reason. Now we can ask ourselves one major thing: With what ability was the demo able to turn things around? Traps, oh yea a well placed sticky trap dropping an uber is always a great turnaround in a match. But wait a moment… traps didn’t get nerfed, right? Another thing… surprise crits! You can still deal 180dmg with those and drop a med. Yes, it’s harder now since the sticky has to be closer to the medic(:o aim again) but it’s still possible.
-don’t care about the HL stuff-
Quoted from jakeowaty
The meta will change drastically if they don’t revert the change, and there is going to be massive decline in Demo mains, no doubts about that. 6’s is going to slowly deteriorate to the state where 4v4 is, where more witty people will be running perma Pyros or perma Heavies. After that more decline, less teams signing up, Premiership being silly and not having a pull anymore – boom. Whole comp dead.
Quoted from jakeowaty
That is Solid in a nutshell. He will keep nsulting people instead of actually prove a point here, because it’s much easier.
:^)
Last edited by Solid,
There’s a lot of arguing going on that basically recalls the same arguments during any unlock discussion war.
The video game’s internal rules are the way they are because the developers made them so. Nothing else. You can’t argue “the game was meant to be X”, because you don’t decide on that. Any change to the game is completely arbitrary and can never truly be argued to be bad or good from a pure reasoning standpoint. The rebuttal to these arguments will always be “but thats just your opinion/taste/etc”.
What we COULD say however is that most people made a conscious decision to play this specific game; TF2, and not some other game, because TF2’s internal rules and mechanics please them; its fun. Now, you can tweak those rules and mechanics slightly, which is fine, but once you start changing too much, the game essentially becomes a different game. Once you start throwing in these huge meta changes 7 years after the game’s release, people won’t be happy, because they never chose to play this “new” metagame that emerges from the new rules and mechanics, and they’re not even offered a choice to keep playing the “old” game they loved.
What is a fact though is that the most succesful competitive game environments have been those with an established meta. Not only chess, but any real life sport. This law also applies in esports, if you leave out those silly MOBAs. MOBAs are clearly the exception because the constant overthrowing of the meta is actually a part of the meta itself (metaception). Wether you like that or not is a matter of taste. I think it’s silly and a bad excuse to cover up boring core mechanics. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think even the SC scene flourished the most when the meta had been stable for the longest amount of time (SC:BW).
tl;dr: People who don’t like the change have very valid sentiments, but aren’t bringing forth valid arguments. People who tell others to quit whining and adapt don’t understand the core issue that is causing their discontent.
tl;dr of the tl;dr: you’re all idiots, but the people who try to put up a rational argument for/against this change are the worst.
Last edited by skeej,
Quoted from Solid
Time for my retarded and way too long wall of text.
I’ll try not to mention pipes here since everyone has heard that argument 8999 times already.
[…]
It actually is more fast-paced now since there will be less spam in chokes. Check mate.[…]
That wont change. Check mate.[…]
Now it is build around the pocket and the demo being main damage dealers. How is that a bad thing? Check mate.[…]
A lot of european teams play that way yes but as you can see with NA teams it’s possible to play with a demo that is roaming a bit more. That means the pocket has to play pocket again :ooo Check mate.[…]
First of all that’s wrong. A well aimed sticky will still do up to 70dmg during the first 2seconds(it’s able to do 138 time period is over) so that’s actually about 50% dmg reduction instead of 75%. That also means that the demo is still able to instakill a scout with 2 well placed stickies. Surely it’s not as easy as before since you just had to spam in the scouts general direction but it’s still possible. In spam battles and uber pushes he has a support role now and has to play a little more defensive than usual but it’s nothing out of the ordinary and doesn’t make him useless at all.[…]
Wonderful analogy but sadly it kind of misses the point. Again a well aimed sticky can do up to 70 damage still. Surely you’ll see a lot of those 19-30 dmg stickies from now on but that’s what the whole nerf was about right? It was about the demo not being able to m1+m2 people on mid range without any real danger. He can still do that btw his aim has to be a lot better now. Yes, the demo will become less important on mid fights since he can’t do as much damage anymore but he’s still very valuable as a damage support while the soldiers become the main damage dealer during middles. Again how is that a bad thing?[…]
But it doesn’t kill 6s at all? That baseless assumption just shows that you have never actually played a game of 6v6 with the “new” demo. I played some scrims with my team yesterday and our demo(albeit being absolutely terrible with pipes) still managed to put out 362 and 340 on snake and gran respectively. After the game he said that while he had to use more pipes than usual it didn’t really have that much of an impact on gameplay except for midfights. Yes it’s only 1 game and it doesn’t necessarily have to be representative for everyone but ash’s logs also show that it’s still very much possible to go above 300/400 as demo. Is that lower than before the nerf? Of course it is but as a matter of fact kr4tos still top damaged on gran and only came behind our pocket on snake. Demos will now be outdamaged by pockets more often than usual. Big deal. Another thing you’ve mentioned is the eventual change in class composition. First of all it wont happen on 5cp maps because demo is still very valuable on those kind of maps. So what maps are left? Viaduct and turbine. Yes, we might see some changes on viaduct(a good example being the epsilon heavy) but that doesn’t mean that demo is not going to be played at all anymore. We always see a lot of soldier/scout offclassing in certain maps and noone seems to have a problem with that. On turbine I’m pretty sure demo will still be used due to the importance of sticky traps.[…]
Oh a chess analogy, how original… Also your example would be the same as just removing the demo from the game and playing 5v5 instead of 6v6 now. You just can’t compare chess and tf2.[…]
So where exactly did you get that 40% from? Please don’t just come up with random percentages for no reason. Now we can ask ourselves one major thing: With what ability was the demo able to turn things around? Traps, oh yea a well placed sticky trap dropping an uber is always a great turnaround in a match. But wait a moment… traps didn’t get nerfed, right? Another thing… surprise crits! You can still deal 180dmg with those and drop a med. Yes, it’s harder now since the sticky has to be closer to the medic(:o aim again) but it’s still possible.-don’t care about the HL stuff-
[…]
:^)
can’t really argue with that, u still have to agree demo mains feeling this nerf in the first days make them feel worthless compared to what they were, we will have to live with it, yes, but it is still a stupid update. Me as a medic, this update makes me even more survivable than before, and it is undeniable that wrangled sentries took a wild biff on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-CVp6_gCbQ
yess skeej, ur my hero. Please stop this argument now about a cartoony videogame
Quoted from w3doe
yess skeej, ur my hero. Please stop this argument now about a cartoony videogame
Quoted from w3doe
please. No really, i do wanna hear the other side as i kind of support it too.
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