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Quoted from herpderp

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How does 65% increased weapon switch time make pyro more viable for mid fights than he is currently with a normal flamethrower? Degreaser does less damage (with fire?), but allows you to shotgun/flaregun faster, I don’t see how that improves the pyro’s viability as a class in 6v6?

If you read my post correctly I’m talking about the viability of these classes as utility classes, not classes to “go to middle” with.

Quoted from Kaneco

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If you read my post correctly I’m talking about the viability of these classes as utility classes, not classes to “go to middle” with.

I’d still like to know why Pyro becomes more viable with the Degreaser?

Quoted from herpderp

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I’d still like to know why Pyro becomes more viable with the Degreaser?

I have played pyro with degreaser since I can remember, that’s just how I prefer to play it, as I said, some people will still prefer the default over the degreaser, and if the degreaser is allowed at the end of the day everyone is happy.

Quoted from Kaneco

…at the end of the day everyone is happy.

and the award for ‘Eternal Optimist Of The Week’ goes to….

Quoted from Kaneco

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I have played pyro with degreaser since I can remember, that’s just how I prefer to play it, as I said, some people will still prefer the default over the degreaser, and if the degreaser is allowed at the end of the day everyone is happy.

That doesn’t exactly answer my question though.

I got about half way through the second paragraph of the OP and decided I wouldn’t reading any other comments as I’d probably have an Aneurysm.

This game is 5 years old. ETF2L has existed for nearly all of those 5 years and the original admins had probably starting planning things before the game was even out of beta. There is going to come a point where this game dies out. It’s still a long time away yet, but in all likely-hood we’re at the turning point.

The game we have is fantastic. It’s the same game we had more than 3 years ago when the demo limit 1 rule was agreed upon, and that’s what it comes down to, a lot of people have played the same game for a long time and they’re bored of it.

If you think unlocks are going to make the game less boring you are incredibly misguided. You are simply fed up of TF2, or at least the competitive flavour. Injecting gimmick unlocks is not going to change that fact. You need to do a bit of thinking and decide whether it’s something you really want to keep playing. If you want to quit as your bored, no one will blame you and in all likely-hood we will see you in near future in some capacity.

Again, if you think unlocks are going to help curb the trend of reducing player numbers you’ll be disappointed. Those who point to NA as an example of what unlocks can do for a scene don’t know what they are talking about. Every season of every 6v6 league in North America has had significantly less teams than the ETF2L season running parallel to it. eXtv do a great job of presenting it as something big (which I accept as a member of VanillaTV it’s something we don’t do nearly as well), but the truth of the matter is that their scene is, was, and most likely always will be smaller, at least for 6v6 anyway.

There is an argument to be made for a couple of unlocks for sure. I think the Quick-Fix certainly has the potential for some incredibly niché shock strategies, As NA has proven the Gunboats have the potential to bring some serious changes to the meta (whether for better or worse is for you to decide), and I’m sure that someone somewhere has a hilariously effective heavy strategy revolving around the GRU just waiting for its time to shine (and the dramatic return of Riemu to prem TF2).

However here is the problem with unlocks, how do we decide?

A public vote doesn’t work because the majority of players have such a woefully bad understanding of the game that their opinion isn’t valuable. A “panel” wouldn’t work simply because – well – how do you decide who is on that panel? The only other alternative is to leave it to the leagues to make up their own rules which from 2008-2010 did incredible damage to our scene since it’s a little difficult to reach a consensus of 5000+ people.

What we have now is a very stable ruleset that works pretty well. It provides a good framework for players to compete in right from the worst to the best players in the game, and it’s quite simple to explain to the layman.

Please. Let’s put this half-decade old debate to bed once and for all.

Quoted from MoneyGrabber

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That “If it’s not broken don’t fix it” argumment is just plain idiotic. Granted that unlocks aren’t going to magically make everyone who has quit/is quitting the competitive scene of TF2 suddenly want to keep playing it, but surely that allowing for the creation of new strategies is a good thing to the game since it helps make it more complex (hence, interesting).

Imagine if they changed the rules in Golf, or football, or tennis every 2 months? Do you think that would be good for the sport? If you didn’t notice a huge section of my post was actually advocating a few particular unlocks.

Quoted from Skyride

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Imagine if they changed the rules in Golf, or football, or tennis every 2 months? Do you think that would be good for the sport? If you didn’t notice a huge section of my post was actually advocating a few particular unlocks.

Team Fortress 2 definitely isn’t golf, football or tennis. Playing the same maps with the same tactics over and over will eventually become tedious for everyone who does it. Most sports don’t get tedious so fast because of all the random things that can happen during a game (not so much in sports like golf, but that’s why most people wouldn’t have the patience to do it constantly). It’s just repetitive. As it is right now, maps like Badlands or Granary are heavily scripted, because there’s only so many things that can happen in a practically-vanilla 6v6 game in the same maps before it becomes predictable. The maps change every now and then, and so should unlocks. Trying something new isn’t going to kill anyone, and, at worst, they’d just have to ban an unlock mid-season.

I actually read all of your post (again) and I’m still confused. You praised some unlocks, yes, but right afterwards you pretty much said “Although a good idea, there’s no easy way of implementing it, hence, not worth it. Besides, it’s been working thus far”.