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Created 30th June 2012 @ 12:31
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EU soldiers also wall and skip jump? It just ups the skill-ceiling for EU soldiers, because they land with less health and thus have to time their jump better.
Quoted from Kaneco
So first you say it removes roaming capabilities, then you say it’s a dominant strategy for mids? Doesn’t change the role of the soldier? Great, now we’re getting there, at least it’s not the “Gunboats is a crutch for bad play” argument. But a rather boring one for the spectators? I don’t know which games you have been watching in NA but I for one love to see a soldier wall jump or skip jump to bomb a medic or whatever his objective is. And as mentioned earlier, even if it’s allowed not every soldier will use them, even in NA most top soldiers change them accordingly the situation and there almost always at least 1 shotty soldier in each team
You are clearly just chatting shit if you don’t realise that the best unlocks for midfights are not the best for all the time. Whilst top na roamers may use shotgun at other times during the map because gunboats ___remove_some_roaming_usefulness___, gunboats are the dominant strategy on mid because it just allows you to fly in at roughly a trillion miles an hour and skullfuck the medic/demo.
It doesn’t change the role of the roaming soldier, it just makes it easier to get in there, harder to finish opponents/deal damage. You are still jumping in to force/kill.
Yes, I agree, it’s entertaining to watch a triple rocketjump rape surprise, but it’s just as entertaining to watch someone jump in and finish off the medic with a clutch shotgun kill. Swings and roundabouts.
And it’s highly likely that 90% of roamers in the eu would use the gunboats, the reason pockets don’t use them as often in the na is because you don’t jump around as much and need to protect your medic. If it really has to be explained to you why the pocket soldiers normally run shotgun over gunboats then I seriously doubt you possess the insight needed to add anything to an unlocks debate and frankly your replies are getting more and more insane.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
I mentioned completly different maps and you go and counter my argument by mentioning some of the worst maps in comp tf2 history. Koth has huge potential, and there are maps good enough to be used. I like warmfront, although people seem to don’t lake the stalemates it generates I think it’s not that much stale and at the least it’s much like granary. Process’s coll as well, and dayum that demo rollout, probably one of the hardest, talk about raising the skill cap.
“Nothing has changed”, again, wrong.
You’re completely missing his point. He’s saying the community has repeatedly proven that they won’t learn from their mistakes, using the example that they’ve constantly voted in maps that were tried and rejected for being terrible.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
“Etf2l is a community run league”, beautiful words, why not live by them and let the community decide then? Instead of only an handful of prem players.
We did. Allowing unlocks caused a lot of people to leave and disallowing them did nothing like that.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
A dead ringer spy is pretty much ineffective in 6v6, last time I checked NA allowed it but tell me how many times have you seen a play or any decent spy play for that matter using the dead ringer.You can fake dead only so many times and any efficient team will kill you in 5-6 seconds max even with he dead ringer
A DR Spy dies in 5-6 seconds? He does nothing useful? Evidently you’ve not seen DL use the DR, or any other Spy who knows his shit @ comp for that matter.
Quoted from Kaneco
Wrangled sentry has ilimited range but it doesn’t have even half the focus fire a normal sentry has even if you have good aim, thus giving you more freedom of movement , and if you can’t destroy a wrangled sentry with uber I feel bad for you, but then again I didn’t talk about allowing the wrangler either.
Talk about trusting judgement, your arguments are ridiculous.
And once again the complete lack of experience shows. If you think a Wrangled Sentry is easy to destroy you’ve never played against a team that actually works with the Engineer.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
Exatly. Someone who doesn’t accept that allowing more weapons = more variety is totally blind… People are so desperate to make a point against unlocks that they make the silly assumption that all unlocks are upgrades and they don’t add variety.
Allowing e.g. the Equalizer doesn’t mean more variety. It just means you’re forced to run it if you want to keep the playing field level. There’s more unlocks like that, and situational unlocks like the Gunboats lock you into 1 specific style of play that is incapable of adapting properly – as you can only do 1 thing. Being forced to use certain weapons simply because your opponent is using them is not variety, same for being forced into 1 particular playstyle. You don’t get more variety simply by adding weapons, you get variety by people trying out things and actually thinking them up – which there’s still plenty of room for in vanilla.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
So first you say it removes roaming capabilities, then you say it’s a dominant strategy for mids? Doesn’t change the role of the soldier? Great, now we’re getting there, at least it’s not the “Gunboats is a crutch for bad play” argument. But a rather boring one for the spectators? I don’t know which games you have been watching in NA but I for one love to see a soldier wall jump or skip jump to bomb a medic or whatever his objective is. And as mentioned earlier, even if it’s allowed not every soldier will use them, even in NA most top soldiers change them accordingly the situation and there almost always at least 1 shotty soldier in each team
Dominant mid strategy and removing roaming capabilities are not mutually exclusive. And no, it doesn’t change his role. It just forces him to bomb more often. Walljumping/skipjumping is not Gunboats-exclusive, and personally I’d rather watch someone do that without Gunboats – it’s not expected of him and he’s taking a far greater risk.
And during all this people are ignoring an obvious issue:
Why should we allow unlocks when Valve is constantly adding new ones – thus constantly providing “more options” which will in turn constantly change what is the best/strongest at that time? Why should we allow unlocks when Valve is changing them unpredictably – and often not even in a way that fixes an issue with that? We get no advance notice, no influence. We just get the change and a “deal with it”.
Quoted from Sideshow
If it really has to be explained to you why the pocket soldiers normally run shotgun over gunboats…
Oooh-oooh, I know this one..hang on…it’s on the tip of my tongue…ermmm, nah, it’s slipped away.
Wait, wait, I got it…something to do with budding udders?
I’ll just deconstruct this here quote:
Quoted from Monkeh
Most top soldiers in the NA switch accordingly, when on offense, they’ll equip gunboats, but when they’re pushed to last, they switch to shotgun accordingly.
This is a kind of variation but not the important one. The kind of variation we should be looking for unlocks to bring is different teams using different unlocks in the same situation and NOT the same unlocks in different situations. The latter leads to a bland, stale meta that simply becomes the new “standard” whereas the former results in different strategies and playstyles between different teams. The fact that anyone can switch freely between unlocks at any moment with no penalty as long as they’re near a cabinet heavily works against the viability of a vast majority of unlocks: you can remove most of the penalty in using a situational weapon. The one exception to this is mediguns, as losing the % charge means you almost always need to commit to a medigun within the first few seconds of you spawning. Funnily enough, Kritzkrieg is the most widely accepted and interesting unlock from a meta/gameplay perspective.
Quoted from Monkeh
Equipping gunboats does not necessarily degrade the game, as the most important thing about playing the game is timing imo.
Timing is essential. What the gunboats do is make soldiers with poor timing much more effective and makes those soldiers with really good timing even more effective again. It is by no mean “I win” button but it’s also very hard to argue that it lowers the skill requirement for the vast majority of situations required to be effective. I say vast majority because gunboats do open up a few number of possibilities that aren’t open to vanilla soldier or makes some effective to the point of being plausible rather than crazy given how weak it would leave you.
Quoted from Monkeh
Also medics will have to adjust and have hyper awareness, I think it will bring a higher skill ceiling for medics as it has in the states
It does nothing to change the skill ceiling. What I believe this person is trying to say is that it forces the medic to raise their skill level closer to the skill ceiling. Nothing about the gunboats changes how a medic could position themselves and in the majority of situations the gunboating soldier could most likely be doing the same thing regardless of gunboats or not. What changes is how quickly the players defending the medic can kill the roamer due to the difference in hp and necessitates that medics do position themselves better because of this. By artificially raising the “skill level” of the soldier by making his job easier/more effective, you force the medic to raise his game which should be a natural progression of play as players get better.
Quoted from Monkeh
although you may have initial players quitting, you will find diamonds in the rough that truly are spectacular at what they can do at the medic position.
Having players quit the game because they no longer find it fun from being bombed by high hp soldiers that are hard to stop is not a great thing, I think anyone would admit. The difference between the NA and euro scenes is that there is very little motivation, or reason to be motivated, at the top level of euro tf2. This obviously isn’t the case in the states where prizes and LANs actually give the top players a reason to strive to improve and as a result greatly improves the competition. What is going to drive euro medics?
Last edited by Vali,
Quoted from Sideshow
[…]
You are clearly just chatting shit if you don’t realise that the best unlocks for midfights are not the best for all the time.
Of course. Still there’s always going to be teams running at least pocket sollies with shotgun in mids, it’s not that dominant of a strategy. Yes for a short period of time you can have 2 roamers while you pocket you demo or scout but it allows also for a variety of strategies on mids (running 2 gunboat aggressive sollies, pocket demo), (running 1 gunboat aggressive solly, etc).
Quoted from Sideshow
Whilst top na roamers may use shotgun at other times during the map because gunboats ___remove_some_roaming_usefulness___, gunboats are the dominant strategy on mid because it just allows you to fly in at roughly a trillion miles an hour and skullfuck the medic/demo.
It’s not a dominant strategy, it’s simply a different strategy, you can easily counter the 2 bombing soldiers with 1 more passive soldier and a good demo that knows his shit. It’s not like everyone’s gonna run 2 gunboat sollies on mids, I wouldn’t if I was pocket, of course everything depends on the team strategy at the time, but it’s not a dominant strategy just because you say so.
Quoted from Sideshow
It doesn’t change the role of the roaming soldier, it just makes it easier to get in there, harder to finish opponents/deal damage. You are still jumping in to force/kill.
Then why are you so against it if it doesn’t change the role of the soldier, after all you realized it has advantages “makes it easier to get in there” and disadvantages “harder to finish opponents/deal damage”, so after all it’s balanced, right? or am I missing something? Ultimately it’s down to a team strategy and a player style of play, if anything it allows more personalized strategies and plays.
Quoted from Sideshow
Yes, I agree, it’s entertaining to watch a triple rocketjump rape surprise, but it’s just as entertaining to watch someone jump in and finish off the medic with a clutch shotgun kill. Swings and roundabouts.
There, you said it, 2 fantastic ways of a bombing soldier play to end, why not allow both? It just adds emotion to this game…
Quoted from Sideshow
And it’s highly likely that 90% of roamers in the eu would use the gunboats, the reason pockets don’t use them as often in the na is because you don’t jump around as much and need to protect your medic.
Of course, makes sense, although there will be roamers still using shotgun, take for example blaze who run shotgun most of the time in ESEA lan from what I remember, it’s down to player preference.
Quoted from Sideshow
If it really has to be explained to you why the pocket soldiers normally run shotgun over gunboats then I seriously doubt you possess the insight needed to add anything to an unlocks debate and frankly your replies are getting more and more insane.
Putting words in my mouth again and finishing with the “go play pub noob” argument, way to go. I congratulate you on your argumentation skills!
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
You’re completely missing his point. He’s saying the community has repeatedly proven that they won’t learn from their mistakes, using the example that they’ve constantly voted in maps that were tried and rejected for being terrible.
That’s because people have grown so used to play granlands that any other thing that falls off their comfort zone is immediately flagged to be taken down. I’m always the one in double mixes wanting to play gravel pit or snakewater, no one wants, why? Because they don’t know how to play them and don’t want to bother learning. Of course there’s always going to be bad maps, but even good maps like I consider snakewater and gravelpit to be, are immediatly rejected.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
We did. Allowing unlocks caused a lot of people to leave and disallowing them did nothing like that.
[citation needed]
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
A DR Spy dies in 5-6 seconds? He does nothing useful? Evidently you’ve not seen DL use the DR, or any other Spy who knows his shit @ comp for that matter.
I have over 100h cloaked as spy and offclass spy countless times in 6s and play highlander spy usually too, I know my shit… A Dead Ringer spy is much more ineffective in 6vs6 compared to the watch spy no matter how you want to put it, it might obviously create a distraction or act as bait but it will rarely if anytime get key picks.
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
And once again the complete lack of experience shows. If you think a Wrangled Sentry is easy to destroy you’ve never played against a team that actually works with the Engineer.
With uber? Easy, without uber? As hard as any other sentry… Besides any team running engie in 6s will usually have the sentry “unwrangled” to better focus fire. You’re making a storm because this one item when I didn’t even mention to allow it, although It wouldn’t bother me if it was allowed.
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
Allowing e.g. the Equalizer doesn’t mean more variety. It just means you’re forced to run it if you want to keep the playing field level. There’s more unlocks like that, and situational unlocks like the Gunboats lock you into 1 specific style of play that is incapable of adapting properly – as you can only do 1 thing. Being forced to use certain weapons simply because your opponent is using them is not variety, same for being forced into 1 particular playstyle. You don’t get more variety simply by adding weapons, you get variety by people trying out things and actually thinking them up – which there’s still plenty of room for in vanilla.
The equalizer was nerfed, I would say it’s much better now as the escape plan, of course if both the new variations are allowed soldiers are going to be running those instead of the shovel, it’s somewhat of an upgrade, but it’s one of the most fantastic and exciting unlocks in my point of view and leaving it out of the equation would be dumb.
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
Dominant mid strategy and removing roaming capabilities are not mutually exclusive. And no, it doesn’t change his role. It just forces him to bomb more often. Walljumping/skipjumping is not Gunboats-exclusive, and personally I’d rather watch someone do that without Gunboats – it’s not expected of him and he’s taking a far greater risk.
As I said, ultimately it would be down to the player preference, the shotgun still is and will always be a fair and good alternative to the gunboats.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
And during all this people are ignoring an obvious issue:
Why should we allow unlocks when Valve is constantly adding new ones – thus constantly providing “more options” which will in turn constantly change what is the best/strongest at that time? Why should we allow unlocks when Valve is changing them unpredictably – and often not even in a way that fixes an issue with that? We get no advance notice, no influence. We just get the change and a “deal with it”.
Now, now… Valve did hear the competitive scene, remember when tf2beta was introduced? Remember when they constantly changed items attributes according to comp players feedback? Remember when even after valve changed items you would still not allow them?
We had a chance to give input to valve, but the “NO FUN ALLOWED” people ruined it for all of us with their vanilla obsession. You (as in comp players at the time) HAD influence and you HAD advance notice, you didn’t give a fuck, now you get the change and a “Deal with it” stamp on it, seems a fair trade to me.
Quoted from Vali
The latter leads to a bland, stale meta that simply becomes the new “standard”
This is the only bit I can argue with….so I will. It’s still more varied for both players and spectators than always shotgun…so yeah, take that, you big intelligent eloquent person you!
Last edited by Monkeh,
Kaneco, what level do you play tf2 at. Don’t give me this “omg i been in so many 6v6 games”, but give a clear answer. Who can vouch for you?
Quoted from Koeitje
Kaneco, what level do you play tf2 at. Don’t give me this “omg i been in so many 6v6 games”, but give a clear answer. Who can vouch for you?
I’m a div6 shitter
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
I’m a div6 shitter
Okay, please tell me more about how this game works.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
That’s because people have grown so used to play granlands that any other thing that falls off their comfort zone is immediately flagged to be taken down. I’m always the one in double mixes wanting to play gravel pit or snakewater, no one wants, why? Because they don’t know how to play them and don’t want to bother learning. Of course there’s always going to be bad maps, but even good maps like I consider snakewater and gravelpit to be, are immediatly rejected.
Please provide proof of that being due to them not knowing other maps and not bothering to learn them.
Snakewater rejected? Half of Badmen’s pcws during S12 were on Snakewater. I’ve never had any problems with getting games on Snakewater, nor have I ever heard of anybody having that. Gravelpit yea, because it doesn’t really matter how often you practice it. You can still lose a round in just 1 moment.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
[citation needed]
http://etf2l.org/etf2l/archives/71/1/#premierdivision
Sure was a fun season.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
I have over 100h cloaked as spy and offclass spy countless times in 6s and play highlander spy usually too, I know my shit… A Dead Ringer spy is much more ineffective in 6vs6 compared to the watch spy no matter how you want to put it, it might obviously create a distraction or act as bait but it will rarely if anytime get key picks.
I’ve done both as well, Spy @ Div1 HL and div2/1 6v6. Very effective if you coördinate with your team. The DR is ridiculously effective for minimal effort as you can become truly invisible with 90% damage reduction at the cost of an ammo pack.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
With uber? Easy, without uber? As hard as any other sentry… Besides any team running engie in 6s will usually have the sentry “unwrangled” to better focus fire. You’re making a storm because this one item when I didn’t even mention to allow it, although It wouldn’t bother me if it was allowed.
So you’re saying that tripling the Sentry’s effective health, giving it unlimited range, doubled dps (and independent rocket/chaingun firing) ánd unlimited turning speed makes no difference in how easily it’s taken out?
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
The equalizer was nerfed, I would say it’s much better now as the escape plan, of course if both the new variations are allowed soldiers are going to be running those instead of the shovel, it’s somewhat of an upgrade, but it’s one of the most fantastic and exciting unlocks in my point of view and leaving it out of the equation would be dumb.[…]
As I said, ultimately it would be down to the player preference, the shotgun still is and will always be a fair and good alternative to the gunboats.
Doesn’t respond to what I said. Read again please.
Quoted from Kaneco
[…]
Now, now… Valve did hear the competitive scene, remember when tf2beta was introduced? Remember when they constantly changed items attributes according to comp players feedback? Remember when even after valve changed items you would still not allow them?We had a chance to give input to valve, but the “NO FUN ALLOWED” people ruined it for all of us with their vanilla obsession. You (as in comp players at the time) HAD influence and you HAD advance notice, you didn’t give a fuck, now you get the change and a “Deal with it” stamp on it, seems a fair trade to me.
Do know what you’re talking about before commenting. The weapons added to the game were not the weapons tested in the beta. Valve added versions with completely different stats than was tested. The “beta” was a sham for the most part as they didn’t do anything with it.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
[…]
Please provide proof of that being due to them not knowing other maps and not bothering to learn them.
Snakewater rejected? Half of Badmen’s pcws during S12 were on Snakewater. I’ve never had any problems with getting games on Snakewater, nor have I ever heard of anybody having that. Gravelpit yea, because it doesn’t really matter how often you practice it. You can still lose a round in just 1 moment.
Maybe it happens to me with snakewater, but people only want to play Gran, gully, blands.
I like gravelpit, and it’s not as simple as “doesn’t really matter how often you practice it. You can still lose a round in just 1 moment”, I think gravelpit is definitly one of those maps where if you have a strong and well-thought through strategy you will be successful, particularly on defense. You can’t just say it’s a random lottery who wins a gravelpit map. Just not many teams bother with training gpit enough to develop good strategies for it.
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
I’ve done both as well, Spy @ Div1 HL and div2/1 6v6. Very effective if you coördinate with your team. The DR is ridiculously effective for minimal effort as you can become truly invisible with 90% damage reduction at the cost of an ammo pack.
Acting as a bait is not my exact definition of good spy play, although it can work it has hardly any advantage over the default watch.
[…]
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
So you’re saying that tripling the Sentry’s effective health, giving it unlimited range, doubled dps (and independent rocket/chaingun firing) ánd unlimited turning speed makes no difference in how easily it’s taken out?
No, I am not saying that in anyway, I only think the lost of the focus fire the “unwrangled” sentry has is enough of a downside to the increased health, although I never even mentioned in allowing it on my previous posts.
Quoted from Buffalo Bill
Do know what you’re talking about before commenting. The weapons added to the game were not the weapons tested in the beta. Valve added versions with completely different stats than was tested. The “beta” was a sham for the most part as they didn’t do anything with it.
Valve did give us an opportunity and tf2beta was the best of our opportunities to show we cared. We didn’t, case solved.
And beta tested weapons added before as well, even the shotgun was tested with different attributes. As well as the equalizer, etc…
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