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Allow the escape plan, anything that makes the game play faster is a plus.
Allow self damage scout melees so it frees the soldiers to be more creative in the way of picks/plays, anything that makes that class less boring is a plus.

These two alone would be enough to rejuvenate the game and make eu TF2 less of the colossal snore fest it currently is.

Some of the replies here are backwards, kinda reminds me of when the dmg txt hit and some people proclaimed they weren’t going to use it because it makes the game easier knowing how low someone is after you hit them with X amount of shots/dmg.. just because the games not exactly how it was when you were learning it doesn’t make it a bad thing. Somethings clearly change the game for the better and should be embraced.
The problem is, at least how I see it is etf2l are now too scared after the unlock/league boycott by the old guard (most of which don’t even play anymore) which is kinda sad. Made even sadder when you take into account the amount of power this league holds over the whole scene – it’s just one insanely dumb cycle that’ll never get resolved untill someone with ample sized bollocks makes some big decisions.

I’m going to point out again that the unlocks we played with, that caused the rage and scene split, have all been tweaked and changed in the last year or more. Heavy can’t pick up his own sanvich now etc.

Quoted from Buffalo Bill

[…]

It wasn’t solely top players, and it’s not “whining”. We didn’t want to play with unlocks anymore and thus didn’t sign up. Simple as that.

It was pretty much just top players. We didn’t have a proper prem for that season.

Quoted from Monkeh

[…]

I have been petitioning for a change to the US rule set as well as I feel that is more likely to provide more entertainment all round, but the unlocks might just make it easier for newbies to come play as well as opening up new tactics for people bored with vanilla.

Vanilla is so simple and is still a great game that I understand your point, but to watch our game wither and die because we couldn’t be bothered to have sensible, rational debate would be very sad.

Lets hear some of these new tactics that would open up when we allow unlocks, the soldier unlocks that people propose to allow (Gunboats/The Escape Plan) don’t actually open up new tactics for a soldier they just allow him to be more aggressive to mid and be more creative with jumps outside of mid while maintaining the ability to escape.

Of the scout unlocks most promoted only The Boston Basher demands a change in playstyle (being closer to the med to allow building uber/taking over to build when a soldier dies).

The only strategic changes I’ve seen with unlocks were the GRU for Heavy (which in my opinion even if there is a majority for unlocks should stay out because it actually slows the mid fight down rather than speeding it up) and the Gunslinger for engie (again, the mini sentry on mid while being a “new” tactic does nothing to make the game more aggressive/fast paced).

From there on I’ve seen the bonk scout block (run straight at your enemies choke on mid with bonk popped to deter them from entering mid with the heavies, slows down midfights instead of making them more aggressive/faster paced).

And I don’t see any sniper/spy/pyro unlocks that would lead to new strats, at best I see them making minor changes in the way a class might behave with them (spy being riskier with deadringer, slower with CnD, sniper trying to line up shots like you would for a tripple rail kill in Quake with the Machina, but these aren’t strats but more small changes in gameplay. Jarate could allow for a specific strat but it seems way to powerfull from my perspective [same with Buff Banner and the unlocks similar to it]).

But maybe I’m not familiar enough with these unlocks to see their potential strats, so I’d like to see what strategies people are actually thinking of when they raise that point.

(Not related to this post, but if we’re going to have any sort of sensible discussion these discussions should be moderated better or they’ll derail like so many of the older ones have.)

I would love the Boston basher to be used. We quite often have scouts on snakewater as a strat. It works well due to the layout of the mid. But I can see it being much more viable on badlands or granary with the Boston basher.

I still think there are other weapons that are viable. Things I didn’t like were the liquid based attacks. Piss, milk bonk etc. They disrupted natural flow. As did buff banner etc

Although I would like to see a quick fix cup with the buff banners etc. I think that could be really fun.

Quoted from FADe

Allow the escape plan, anything that makes the game play faster is a plus.
Allow self damage scout melees so it frees the soldiers to be more creative in the way of picks/plays, anything that makes that class less boring is a plus.

These two alone would be enough to rejuvenate the game and make eu TF2 less of the colossal snore fest it currently is.

Some of the replies here are backwards, kinda reminds me of when the dmg txt hit and some people proclaimed they weren’t going to use it because it makes the game easier knowing how low someone is after you hit them with X amount of shots/dmg.. just because the games not exactly how it was when you were learning it doesn’t make it a bad thing. Somethings clearly change the game for the better and should be embraced.
The problem is, at least how I see it is etf2l are now too scared after the unlock/league boycott by the old guard (most of which don’t even play anymore) which is kinda sad. Made even sadder when you take into account the amount of power this league holds over the whole scene – it’s just one insanely dumb cycle that’ll never get resolved untill someone with ample sized bollocks makes some big decisions.

<3 sparkle … Fully agree, but I don't think ETF2L is now currently the big source of conservatism. Yes, they dictate the rules, but all they did is listen to the community. And at this moment, the community is once more outing their stance on the current status quo.

Quoted from herpderp

[…]

Lets hear some of these new tactics that would open up when we allow unlocks, the soldier unlocks that people propose to allow (Gunboats/The Escape Plan) don't actually open up new tactics for a soldier they just allow him to be more aggressive to mid and be more creative with jumps outside of mid while maintaining the ability to escape.

I talked to you about your scepticism towards unlocks freeing up the soldier's abilities, and now that I read this, I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. You're expecting to see entirely new plays, a shift in the metagame. What allowing unlocks like EP, GB, BB (to free soldiers of building uber) does however, is simply add steroids to the currently established metagame. The edges of the confinements of possibilities of play become more elastic, can be played around with more. We allow the most bound-to-routine class (because this whole thing is at its core about the soldier) to be a little more versatile and creative. And since I've never heard anyone scream that the soldier is OP and that the soldier needs CL1 (the only thing you hear people say is the exact opposite), I think it's a fair thing to try in Europe.

You're asking for proof of new tactics, I already pointed you to the ESEA lan finals. The quote from that e-mail that Monkeh got basically states the same thing. Nope, no amazing new ways of approaching the metagame, but just less stalematey, more agressive plays, and quite some plays that were caused by pure individual skill. And in a game that already succeeds so well at diminishing the effectiveness of individual play, I think that allowing a little more heroism in this game is not a bad thing.

I think somehow the addition of a few unlocks to the soldier class motivates soldiers to become better at what they do; because they simply have more tools in their arsenal to approach their goals in different ways. In EU, the amount of amazing soldiers has shrunken to a handful, and this is causing a reverse-snowball effect. No amazing soldiers means no inspiration, no role model, no symbol for newer or lesser skilled players to look up to and aspire. That might sound silly, because "its just a cartoon game", but I believe that in TF2 it also works like that. Just hear how people speak about the highest skilled players in NA TF2 with respect and admiration, how people want to play like Platinum or Blaze for instance.

We don't need a massive overhaul of the metagame, in fact, we don't NEED anything. But injecting that bit of adrenaline into the current metagame by allowing a few unlocks that increase the game's pace, promote clever play, promote indvidual skill, and add spectacle for spectators, doesn't seem like it would hurt the game at all.

[edit]just saw your new post before mine; my point is actually more relevant: it’s not about letting the metagame undergo a complete metamorphosis, it’s about boosting what makes the metagame good in the first place[/edit]

Quoted from herpderp

[…]

I’d still like to know why Pyro becomes more viable with the Degreaser?

It’s very simple. The Pyro’s flamethrower is an extremely limited weapon. Against most good competitive players, you’re not getting anywhere near them on foot, and you have no ‘accelerated movement mode’ like soldiers, demomen and scouts (they are fast anyway) have, so the damage reduction of the flames has very little effect.

This should mean that the Pyro relies on their flaregun / shotgun to be useful, right? Well yes, but the other useful feature of the Pyro is the airblast. By running the degreaser, the pyro is able to see a rocket, switch from shotgun / flaregun to degreaser, deflect the rocket, and switch back to their other weapons, in a short space of time. It means they can be much more useful at defending your team, but also applying some damage, while keeping a reasonable distance.

Degreaser also allows quick and aggresive, burn -> blast -> flaregun -> blast (if a second one is needed) combos. These can have incredibly high damage outputs.

Now just in case that wasn’t specific enough. The reason why this makes the Pyro a viable alternative for a midfight, is because without the degreaser, the class is very limited (to either defensive airblasts, or aggresive burning / shotty play), and will in no way be able to replace either a scout or a soldier’s effectiveness in a midfight (excluding those single, lucky plays where no one sees you come up behind them).

And for a post from RTS a few pages back.

Pyro is viable in vanilla. But it’s only viable for sitting on your last point, blasting an ubered combo back through the door they came from, or maybe on the tower of gravelpit. A couple of unlocks allow it to become a viable main class, for the skilled players who know how to play it.

[edit]just saw your new post before mine; my point is actually more relevant: it’s not about letting the metagame undergo a complete metamorphosis, it’s about boosting what makes the metagame good in the first place[/edit]

I’m not expecting the metagame to change drasticly with the arrival of unlocks. The point behind most of my posts was to try and wiggle some more reasoning out of the pro-unlock posts because they seem to base their arguements on predictions (ie unlocks will bring more pubs to comp which no one can realisticly guarantee) or they base their arguements on unkown properties (new strats that arent possible with the current unlock set, I haven’t seen a single example of this).

I’m not denying that the Escape plan and Gunboats frees up sollies to play more aggressive and be more flexible or that there aren’t uses for the boston basher (although it would probavly situational at the start atlrast).

I’m simply questioning that the addition of unlocks will be a rejuvinating kiss of life for ETF2L, because it seems to me that that problem doesnt have its roots in the unlock ruleset or our 6v6 rules (in contrast to the ESEA ones) but rather in the way we try to engage pubbers. (But enough has been said on that already in other posts in this thread.)

Quoted from AcidReniX

[…]
Pyro is viable in vanilla. But it’s only viable for sitting on your last point, blasting an ubered combo back through the door they came from, or maybe on the tower of gravelpit. A couple of unlocks allow it to become a viable main class, for the skilled players who know how to play it.

We’ve used pyro for more than just last defense (capping last on gully/obs with a pyro works pretty good too, as long as it’s timed properly with the right support) I will admit we don’t run a pyro to mid ever (because a scout is simply more effective even if Degreaser is available) so it seems to me in most cases (I’ll give that a good pyro with degreaser could probably be very effective on mid though I’ve yet to see a pyro that can pull it off [doesnt mean they dont exsist i just havent seen one]).

Last post for a while (text editing on a phone is gaaaaaaaaaaay)