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Quoted from Wabbeh

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As you say yourself, engineer isnt fun to play. It also isnt fun for people to play against them. Ergo, why should we encourage engy? It also needs to be made clear that a weapon being UP/balanced and being gay isn’t mutually exclusive. Sentries, mini or normal, require no aiming. There is literally zero skill required to use them. Why should they see use in a competitive environment where skill should be the deciding factor?

This games skill isn’t DM(lol DM in tf2 is a joke, it’s easy to put up 50%+ hitscan vs everyone from invite to open) the game is about teamwork and strats, and being creative with your strats and being able to respond to everything and catch them off guard. running a pyro, heavy, ang engi just to cover up a spy back cap on gullywash is a silly but effective 1 shot gun that actually works sometimes. It’s a game that isn’t me vs him, it’s my team vs his team. when a team loses they don’t point fingers they just say “we lost”.

Also fun is subjective i love to face engi, because i feel it’s a “ballsy” move, and i enjoy playing him even more, but sadly i’m a roamer and my sniping game is way more reliable, and other times a heavy is better as well.

Quoted from Thomas the train

Who the fuck likes to die to sticky traps, or die to insta kill snipers, or spies? No body for the most part, yet they are regarded “as it’s your own damn fault for dying to a trap, or spy, or sniper” why isn’t engi seen as the same way. Shit he’s way way way weaker then sniper and traps, and spy. Yet honestly traps are simple as can be, and spy in 6’s is “dumbed down” or way harder depending on your own opinion.

Well to be honest, whenever you die to a sticky trap you can kinda blame that on yourself for not checking for it or having bad positioning. With snipers you can blame that on bad positioning, not countering him and well the sniper just being plain good(this is where the skill factor comes in, and skill is what competitive everything is pretty much about). When you die because there was a mini sentry in the middle of mid you of course get mad. All that engineer did was press 4 1 and click, 48 dps aimbot with limited range. There’s little to no skill in that, you can be a div 1 scout but a div 6 with a 48 dps ranged aimbot can still easily kill you. These kind of things should not exist in a competitive setting. And in my personal opinion I do not feel that the engineer needs a buff. Here in EU we mostly only play 5cp, and engineer isn’t all that effective in 5cp. You can run one on defense, because well he is supposed to be a defensive class, although other classes may be more effective. Engineer is already very powerful in maps like gravelpit where you have time to set up that defense, other than 5cp. Why should we buff him? He’s already powerful in certain situations, a situation that may be rare here in ETF2L, but it’s still there.

But I want shield and sword demoknight:(

Also Allow Razorback, most balanced item ingame ever!!

Quoted from Thomas the train

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LOL, god no i’m not saying allow the gunslinger, i’m saying the widowmaker, and jag, and origianlly was arguing the Darwin danger shield, or such smaller things that won’t break the game, but adds a bit more viability to them in certain situations. Also dying to a level 3 is the same as a trap(actually worse) it’s a giant machine that can’t move and beeps, and makes whizzing noises when sitting afk. And i 100% agree sniper is skill, but a certain point of comp. you just expect “if i walk into the sight line here, i’m guranteed a death to the sniper.” It’s just your own damn fault for walking into it. Why isn’t engi the same way? Because he’s easier? i mean come on, a soldier dive bombing a medic or demoman, or shotgun stalling dive bombers etc etc.. aren’t exactly the “skilled” way to play this game.

And i have to ask where is “skill=win” in comp come from, the way i see it. DM is nothing out playing and thinking is EVERYTHING, and engi is exactly that, if you fall for a ninjaneer level 3 you fucked up big time. In comp games game sense has always made winners, rapha, frenzy, coller, Zero4(though his rockets are good, he never compared to strenx’s aim.). the only place where “raw skill” and not gamesense won, was probably fighting games. which are the other side of the spectrum compared to tf2.

I’m just arguing some unlocks make classes more viable.

Ah okay, I must’ve misunderstood. Didn’t bother reading the whole debate so I just assumed it was about gunslinger.
You seem to have a misconception of the word skill. When someone says skill they don’t mean DM or aim, skill can be gamesense, positioning, timing, map awareness and etc.. It is the literal difference between a prem player and a div 5 player, it is what defines how good you are.

Now onto the topic of allowing weapons for the engi(as an example). I can’t think of a weapon that would make him more viable for competitive play without being outright broken(except for gunslinger, fuck gunslinger).
Sure, lets allow the jag. What does that weapon add to that class? Does it make him more viable? Will it make him see more use in ETF2L 5cp? Personally, I doubt it. I don’t really think it adds anything worthwhile to the class. Sure it takes you half a second less to build, why would that help him in the 5cp setting? Am I gonna see engineers carrying sentries to mid? Will he be moved from the defensive position that he’s in cause of this weapon?
Alright, toss in a widowmaker. What does that weapon add to the class? How does it make him more viable? Am I gonna see engineers doing their rollout and trying to outdm other classes now cause he can regen his loaded ammo(If he hits)? Is anyone actually gonna use this weapon since it can backfire and promotes offensive play(you need your metal to play defensive)? I doubt it.
Short Circuit? Won’t see any use what so ever, doesn’t help him really and removes metal to defend your shit. Will this make people use engineer more? don’t really think so. Bah I can’t be fucked to go over more items, but you see my point. For most of the less used classes, most weapons for them are very situational(most often not for 5cp maps) and won’t really get used what so ever if we do allow them. There’s also a couple of broken items which make the class a bit too powerful. Especially when it comes to classes that have a lower skill ceiling, which we should not be promoting(like I mentioned in the previous post, if it demotes skill levels, it does not have a place in a competitive setting(e.g. giving the less skilled/talented people rocket boots in the olympics so they can beat the more skilled/talented people is not a good thing))

tl;dr mostly all those weapons don’t really add anything to the class. Most can easily backfire and they will not see any use what so ever (except for the broken weapons, fuck the broken weapons)

Quoted from cmd

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Interesting view, the widowmaker see’s use in AF,US,and Btf2. I’m not saying “engi now cookie cutter class” i’m saying when your sentry drops it’s useful to fall back onto a shotgun that can fire 10 straight shots. round to round does it matter? probably not but the 1/100000 where an engi drops from upper badlands last as his sentry falls, and he drops 8 shots of 80+ damage. If there is even the slightest chance that it can help, and it isn’t game breaking why not allow it? Why look at it as “it isn’t useful 100% of the time, therefore it shouldn’t be included.”

Then you may say “but then i have to say use X, and don’t use Y” well so woop de fucking doo. The Americas, AUS, and AF do it do they not? They have no problem saying ok “DH is allowed but mangler isn’t, no bonk, but ok on CaC(till the last buff.).” and what’s your reason for not doing this? because X unlock doesn’t increase skill 10000%? Even if the item may help the game 100% let’s not allow it because in the rare situation where it happens it’s a crutch(gun boats.)

I have to ask what is the reason for banning gunboats? to help medics? the two other major leagues in the world run the gunboats and there never was a magical lack of all our medics, people adapted and changed their playstyles to it, it isn’t game breaking(though it is game changing.) it just speeds things up and opens the game up and actually allows the roamer to do something for a change without having to be basically a second pocket.

Quoted from Thomas the train

Also fun is subjective i love to face engi, because i feel it’s a “ballsy” move

as someone who stopped playing but occasionally tries to watch games i’ll say that it’s not fun to watch at all. engie or heavy = game just got 1000000% more boring (although that has nothing to do with this topic)

on topic- unlocks are shit and the vast majority are designed to let a class do something they shouldn’t be able to do

Just going to throw this out there, but getting TF2 growing again is not that hard.

First more streams from top players that can then be advertised on all the major sites, maybe also post them on big community sites, such as UKMD etc

Second, make an etf2l cup for only new players and maybe div 6, advertise in game way as streams, offer a decent prize.

Help with reviving the newbie mix group, it has worked so well in NA and kinda died over here. I ended up being the only one trying to organise stuff. They have Invite players, I think I had one, who played once. So this would be huge.

Use i46 as marketing to show everyone the community side of our games, both in the TF2 pub community and the other competitive games.

Ask NA scene what they have done to get it growing, cos lets be honest getting people in a scene where the biggest league is pay to enter is hard.

Some ideas just off top of my head.

The reason the NA scene is growing is that a. less people are leaving, don’t believe this has anything to do with unlocks, provide proof, until then we can only say we don’t know b. they have a lot of streams c. their newbie mix group is awesome.

Unlocks won’t change shit, NA was always just more aggressive than us, I would like to see that change, but unlocks won’t do it.

Quoted from aaaaa

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as someone who stopped playing but occasionally tries to watch games i’ll say that it’s not fun to watch at all. engie or heavy = game just got 1000000% more boring (although that has nothing to do with this topic)

on topic- unlocks are shit and the vast majority are designed to let a class do something they shouldn’t be able to do

pushing badlands last running a offensive level 3 sentry, and a heavy isn’t ballsy? Or interesting? It actually sort of works, after people drop onto the point and the whole rush ensues, no1 really pays attention to an upper level 3, yet it makes them split their defenses hard.