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How to make ETF2L happy familys again - Unlocks
Created 6th May 2011 @ 19:16
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As much as I want this split resolved, it really does sit in the back of my throat like a bloated, cancerous frog that we seem to have no option but to give in to the top players demands or risk losing TF2 as a competitive scene.
Kudos to all the leagues for trying their own thing, but the sooner we get a blanket rule set that all the major leagues use, the better imho. The fact the LANS are using the vanilla ruleset cant be ignored as that is where a fair few new players have got interested in TF2.
Ideal situation is Vanilla plus medlocks as default and then a list of check boxes for a few cinnamon weapons. Both teams check the box for a particular weapon and away we go.
Nice try ETF2L but it seems this is the only way forward. I just hope that is indeed workable into the site code.
Start practising without your equaliser sollies all over Europe, it’s days are numbered….
It’s not just the top players….
Quoted from Martn
[…]
[…]
Just go for one unlock set and let teams figure out the additional unlocks in the match comments, just like teams do with mercs right now.
Why? Because:
– You force teams to make contact, instead of some automated thingy, this improves the sense of community and iirc this is a community league.
– It allows for negotiation. E.g. Team A wants to use unlock X and team B wants unlock Y. Team B refuses to allow Team A to use unlock X, then Team A could say: “Well, unless you allow our unlock X, then we won’t allow you to use unlock Y.
From my post in the admin forums:
Quoted from Spike Himself
I like the idea very much but I don’t think it’s feasible to use the match page for discussing this between teams. Not in it’s current state, anyway. Other than that, this is a brilliant idea.
Reasons why this would not work on the match page include but are not limited to:
– It gives teams yet another thing they can disagree and argue about
– In many cases it will make the match page messy (ie filled with discussion)
– Rules may still be unclear even after having discussed it on the match page – language barrier and other misunderstandings
– You can still use banned items by accident as you can’t really apply a whitelist to thisI propose a programatic idea (checkboxes, for example), which has the following advantages:
1. No discussion involved; teams just tick the boxes of weapons they want banned/allowed
2. You can have a whitelist generated based on the boxes ticked
3. At the end of the season you have the perfect overview of what teams want in regards to unlocks
4. It gives admins a clear overview of what teams agreed on which comes in handy in case of a dispute[…]
Thinking about this a bit more; there’d have to be a deadline up to which you can still change your mind about what checkboxes you’d tick. Randomly came up with this:
– You must pick your unlocks before the scheduling deadline (maybe this would push people to actually schedule games as well!)
– For unlocks where you neither allowed or denied the usage, the ETF2L ruleset applies
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Quoted from L-iNC
[…]
You should make it a drop-down list under the Edit Team page with options “Vanilla”, “Cinnamon” and “I don’t Care”. http://www.lassipatanen.com/files/etf2l/ruleset_preference.png
What if you want to play with a different set against different teams?
Last edited by Spike Himself,
Quoted from TurboTabs
My concerns or faults I see with this ruleset are (as for cinnamon as a whole, well we have a separate topic for that..);
– Teams will not bother/attempt to work out ways of using or countering unlocks in their 6v6 strategies when it’s easier to just turn them off every time and perfect their vanilla play
– Adds more reasons to fall out with each other/teams; For example…
“Let us use Equaliser!”
“No.”
“PPPPPLLLLEEEAAASSSEEE”
“No.”
“Don’t be a wank stain. Come onnnnnnn.”
“No.”P.S Don’t assume most of the lower div people want cinnamon, Thanks (:
.
I will assume most of the lower div people want cinnamon – Speaking to most of the teams at lan – seeing most of the responces here for cinnamon (they are all low div teams) – Looking at the results of the poll (mostly all low div teams) – So with my best estimated guess/assumption most low div teams do want cinnamon – I’ve got a good point of view being lan admin, playing in lower divs and speaking to high div players.
If you can come up with a better estimated guess be my guest – Won’t be resolved till an official poll though. If you’re a lower div team who likes vanilla anyway, then just pick vanilla and you play it? Wheres the problem
It won’t add more reasons to fall out if ETF2L set their own Cinnamon rules or (like the screenshot Spike posted) it’s all done via the radial buttons, theres no arguements then its either available or not.
As for teams not wanting to “find solutions/counters to unlocks” – Thats fair enough but think of it from a competative players perspective – You spend hours of your week training to be good at games and develop specific tactics to win games with the highest amount of skill, then valve puts another 10 unlocks into the game if you then force people to use this, all their hard work is ruined as their tactics may not then work. You may say “well people should make new tactics then” But if you just spend hours a week developing tactics its pointless to then scrap them all due to some unlocks, thats what makes people get disillusioned and not bother with the game.
Think of all the other top comp games they have years to “Master” the game with the same guns and developing tactics, if you constantly add more variables into the game you cant “Master” the game it just becomes a free for all, which is fine for lower divs (its more fun i aggree) But you have to think about the people that don’t want that.
All i’ll say is top teams need to think about what lower teams want (i doubt they will :>) and vice versa. People need to stop being so insular and think about it from both points of view, with TF2 constantly updating we’re in a unqiue situation like no other game, so unless we all pull together and work this out the game will be torn apart tbh.
(woah fuck me wall of text, watch our ARX/Kovacs i’m coming for your title)
Last edited by Tapley ❤,
You’re basically saying vanilla+medlocks is the default and if both teams agree it’s cinnamon? (I didn’t read all of your post but that’s what I understood) If so, I said that around 20 times I think maybe even more.
why not see how many teams want vanilla and how many want cinnamon?
if there is enough of both then 2 concurrent sets of tables with playoffs being 2 maps, 1 vanilla and 1 cinnamon to determine the outcome of the division?
if there aren’t enough of one rule set then take it from there depending on how the “vote” goes?
btw I personally prefer Vanilla (Div 6) but cant speak for the whole team :)
Last edited by Sunshine,
Quoted from Sunshine
why not see how many teams want vanilla and how many want cinnamon?
Because there is no reliable way to do so.
Quoted from Sunshine
add the option on the league sign up page?
Clever. Relaying this :)
Quoted from Spike Himself
What if you want to play with a different set against different teams?
Add similar option to ‘My Matches’ page so you can select match specific ruleset. Use the other option as the teams default selection for every match. Of course there’s more issues like what if team changes their preference 5min before game from cinnamon to vanilla without informing the other team just to be dicks. Who’s responsibility is it to check both teams know what ruleset you play by etc.
no need to go into more complex stuff than it is written in tapleys post.
Downsides?
No one will let our team play cinnamon for example, but will always check vanilla, since they know how we play.
What happens if one team really wants vanilla and one team really wants cinnamon? Who wins? Vanilla does right?
If one teams selects cinnamon the other team is likely to pick vanilla, since the other team show that they are stronger with, or prefer, cinnamon.
Last edited by Alx,
Quoted from Alx
Downsides?
No one will let our team play cinnamon for example, but will always check vanilla, since they know how we play.
What happens if one team really wants vanilla and one team really wants cinnamon? Who wins? Vanilla does right?
If one teams selects cinnamon the other team is likely to pick vanilla, since the other team show that they are stronger with, or prefer, cinnamon.
A potential solution to that could be that when you sign up for the season you choose what ruleset you prefer to play van/cin and then that is the one you stick with through the season. Thus no team can tailor their strategy against specific teams (note: not strategy with regards to what unlocks to use, but with regards to which unlocks to allow in that particular game).
Last edited by MR JOHNSON,
Quoted from MR JOHNSON
[…]
A potential solution to that could be that when you sign up for the season you choose what ruleset you prefer to play van/cin and then that is the one you stick with through the season. Thus no team can tailor their strategy against specific teams (note: not strategy with regards to what unlocks to use, but with regards to which unlocks to allow in that particular game).
Yea, well that could work – but the question remains, when a team who wants cinnamon and a team who wants vanilla meet each other in a match – what will it default to?
Last edited by Alx,
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