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Maplist Div1
Created 12th January 2009 @ 23:14
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Crusa do you see cs_office or maybe cs_747 played often in cs-leagues.. or only the good maps?
hold on a minute.. did u just call cs_747 a bad map!?!?!?!? REAL LIFE SITUATIONS!!!!!!!!!
as_tundra > de_dust2
Make a poll, and not only Div1, dont see the point of that, because the smallest division is div 1…so think the other divisions are even more important. (Sorry that i write in your div 1 only thread.)
If you only make this change in div 1 you soon just gonna have a div 1 no other divisions…because everybody will QUIT!
(answer if i missunderstood.)
Why only Division 1 (+ Division 2)?
a) Lower Divisions usually play for fun and the simple fact that they enjoy playing TF2. Higher Divisions usually get their satisfaction by performing well in a competitive environment. Teams who strive for competitive success wont stay long in lower divisions.
b) While Lower Division teams might not give a damn about what map they are playing or even enjoy playing crazy shit as goldrush, badwater and dustbowl in leagues (Check out the Newspost with the mappicking % where you can see that secondary mappool and exotic maps become popular the further you go down in Divisions), the Higher Division Teams (Division 1 + Probably Division 2) prefer balanced and competitive maps where they can have an equal and good chance of winning if they perform decentish. You’re wondering why badlands and granary get picked so much? It’s not about “not wanting to learn new maps”, in fact people are literally always complaining about the lack of mapchoices, but the simple fact that there aren’t many balances, equal and competitive maps out there.
c) The Skilllevel between several classes gets more and more uneven the higher you go up in Divisions. The gamedynamics change. While you can easily play a Heavy on Granary CP3 in Division 5 (Because the enemy team’s soldiers wont just be as fast as they are in Division 1), you get absolutely obliterated most of the time in Division 1 if you pull a stunt like that? Why? Well, because teams actually have 30-60 minutes tactic briefings on a regular basis and constantly try to improve their teamgame/individual performance. The same problem occured with the demolimit 1 introduction and dragged on for ages. The skillgap between demoman and other classes just isn’t as high in Division 4 games than it is in Division 1 games.
Seperating Division 1 (or 1 + 2) from the other Division doesn’t necessarily mean that those Divisions are the fucking best in the world and the other Divisions just dont fucking matter. It’s more like a mutual understanding that all Division matter. You know why? Because you finally admit that Division 1 players don’t have the same goals and needs as Division 4 players. They see the game differently. They experience the game differently. And unless this get finally accepted, every division will suffer! Division 4 may suffer from a demolimit 1 maybe totally no needed in Division 4, but absolutely mandatory in Division 1. They might not need a TFTrue plugin to enjoy the game, while most of the competitive players in Division 1 and 2 just can’t stand the random damage any longer. Division 5 players might love the variaty in maps and love to choose from a large mappool in order to enjoy their time in TF2 properly, while Division 1 teams think about dropping the league because they have to play 2 times dustbowl and 2 times badwater.
I hope i made my point.
Think after you modified what you meant in your second post, you make a lot more sense Riemu, but I have to completely disagree with the final point:
“- Start threading Division 1 as what it is, a Premiereship Division that should NOT AT ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have the same rules and maps as lower Divisions! (i.e. 3/4). The gamedynamics and skill/class balances are just from another planet. This starts bei stuff as demolimit 1 and certainly does not end with a possible TFTrue inclusion.”
You suggesting that Div1 should play with crits on then? And the skill level between 2/3 is NOT from another planet. Sheesh.
I havent edited/modified any of my posts
What i was saying in this quote is simply the fact that Übersexuals or 4Kings will beat any division 3/4 team 18-0 on granary. And this is what i define as “from another planet”. Because they are already beating other Division 1 teams 10-0 on granary.
No, i agree – the skill level between division 2 and division 3 is probably not “from another planet”. But i never said it was. I wrote Division 1 in contrast to Division 3/4. I dont even say anything about Division 2. So get your quotes straigth.
And no, I dont say that Division 1 should play with Crits on. Crits off was introduced, because 8/10 Division 1 teams didn’t want to play with crits anymore at that time. It wasnt introduced because Division 4 teams voted for Crits Off and Division 1 teams for Crits On. So if you wanna draw retarded conclusions from my post do it right and insert the right values. And that would be: Division 1 need to play without Crits, but Division 4 teams might not need to. You brought the Crit thing up, not me.
Majority of users on ETF2L voted fastlane to the primary map pool while pretty much everyone in div1 would want to see the map removed entirely. That tells you something.
@riemu
Your whole post is based on your assumption that anything under div2 doesnt strive to be better and likes maps like dusbowl.
Lets take a look at the stats shall we.
Map picks from the primary map pool:
div1: 86%
div2: 93%
div3: 93%
div4: 91%
div5: 92%
div6: 86%
makes me wonder….
EDIT: w/o fastlane
div1: 84%
div2: 82%
div3: 86%
div4: 85%
div5: 83%
div6: 78%
Lower division like primary maps just as much as div1 does.
Riemu you are saying that clans are considering dropping because they don’t wan’t to play some maps? You do know that you are playing against other div 1 clans that have picked those maps?
This makes me wonder why they have picked them. Is there some actual reason to choose those maps or is it just random map picking? Maybe the reason behind the choice is that the team who has made the choice to play some “non standard” map thinks they have an edge on that map because they have practised that map.
Then other div1 teams come and whine that you can’t pick that map because it is not good and we can’t play it. Please pick Granary or Badlands that we can play, please. We will quit if you don’t pick one of these maps! Seriously I’m warning you!
In every map both teams have equal chance of winning. It is not like your team is in big disadvantage just because of the map. If you are in a disadvantage it’s because the other team knows the map better and that IMO is the true sign of the pro clan that they can adapt to new things and not just whine if someone throws something new to their face.
The discussion for a fixed map list in other divisions should be taken to a new thread – take a vote or something, clan leaders only.
This is a formal request to the ETF2L admins to change the Division One map format to a set list. Seven of nine clans in the division have clearly stated that they wish to change to this format and I think the admins should take heed of that.
I think the top division clans have put enough in to the league to warrant a fairly minor change to the structure of their division. I would hate to see teams dropping out of the league because such a change wasn’t put in to place :(
Although I can see your point Riemu, I totally disagree with your statement that all clans below div2 play for fun rather than competition and that a lot of them like maps like goldrush.
I’m in a div3 clan myself, and I’m quite sure that every single member dislikes playing those maps.
Hell, even Eejits² (who were in div5) disliked them.
For an inactive muppet, you seem to have had a lot to say lately, Crusa.
The reason why some div 1 teams pick funky maps is not that they have practiced those maps. They haven’t played those maps anymore than the clan they picked it against. They just recognize they have no chance of winning in the usual maps, and believe that a random map that no one ever plays will increase their chances :]
They value (the optimation of the % of ) winning more than having fun…because no one can’t seriously claim to have phun in 2fort etc.
edit: xtala, I think you are ignoring Riemu’s point on purpose. Ofc he doesnt think that every clan in div5 just plays for shits and giggles. He meant to say that the % of such teams in a div increases in lower divs.
Why you want to make Div1 like ESL and apply their rules too ?
Aren’t most div1 clans allready playing in there too ?
i’m just curious..
why do you care what happens in div1?
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