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Quoted from Freddy

[…]

And why exactly is this a bad thing?
“Sniper, spies, stickytraps and a DH direct into a crater can oneshot him too, so I guess that’s a good enough reason to not have those in the format as well”

I’m having a hard time taking you seriously when all you do is write dumb one-liners with no constructive content.

Quoted from Nymthae

[…]

I kinda like what someone said before (Monkeh, was it?) about classes being able to instakill that aren’t balanced for. A spy and a sniper can instakill but they’re well balanced to it – they’ll get minced in a 1v1 fight and you lose presence on a front line.

thats why

Each time I see this “problem with 6s” topic come up what catches my ear is the people who point out how much time it takes build the vanilla ubercharge. Pauses in action in 6s only occur when:
– either side is waiting for uber.
– both sides have uber and either side is waiting for spawns or a pick.

Now I don’t like the sound of getting 1-shotted by soldiers when trying to get and keep said slow-building ubercharge, but really, it won’t add much to what I already have to watch out for. Most proposed unlocks are not going to add or change much.

Discussing unlocks and changes that don’t involve the medic and specifically the ubercharge is fluff talk; tangential to what’s stopping 6s from being played faster and be more exciting.

Quoted from Koeitje

Because if you get in the face of a MG soldier trying to get into position to take down your medic he just shoots rockets and destroys you? Sniper and spy don’t have any DM presence. Only demo has, but he needs 2 stickies at the very least AND he can’t put his trap in another place in the fraction of a second.

Some scenarios:

1. He is in the middle of his jump towards your medic, holding the RL. You try to deny him and fail, he kills the medic and then dies. But if you succeed, he dies without killing your medic.

2. He is in the middle of his jump towards your medic, holding the MG. You try to deny him and fail, he kills the medic and then dies. But if you succeed, he dies without killing your medic.

3. He is about to jump and go for the MG on the med, but you come to stop him. He shoots you with rockets, and the fight ends with either of you dying.

4. He is about to jump and go for a rocket kill on the med, but you come to stop him. He shoots you with rockets, and the fight ends with either of you dying.

5. You failed to deny him in his MG-jump, but the medic strafes under the MG solly and reduces the chance of getting hit by 70% like a non-potato player would do, and then the solly gets instantly focused down and gets no med kill because it took too much time to switch back to RL again.

6. You failed to deny him in his RL-jump, but the medic surfs the first rocket and gets to safety while you destroy the soldier.

7. You manage to deny him a slight bit in the end of his RL-jump, but he kills the med anyway because rockets have ranged damage and MG doesn’t.

I fail to see the issue here?
__________________________________________________________________

Seriously, if he manages to get so close to your medic that he can get 195 dmg on him with that thing, he could as well shoot a direct in the upper body of the medic (because rockets at that range can only be dodged with luck, you can aim right at the player and it will reach him in time) and not in the feet, leaving his attempts at surfing the rocket useless. If a soldier gets that close to the med, the chances of him dying if the soldier is competent are skyhigh anyway.

Even if he doesn’t manage to kill the med, at least he will severely damage him so someone can clean him up if he’s using rockets. Market Gardener is an all-in play, because if he misses the hit, he’s not going to do much (if any) damage to the medic before he gets raped.

You also have to keep in mind that a roamer running MG on the enemy team can actually give your own team an advantage because he cant use EP to run fast to the medkits, and thereby taking a little more heals away from the combo.

Really, the times where the solly using MG or not is gonna be the difference between a dead med and an alive med are not gonna occure often. MG is situational, risky and hard to get on good players (even if your rocketjump skills are at wonderland-level). If your team is letting an MG solly destroy you so hard, then maybe you should question your team’s ability to adapt to situations instead of hating on the item.

Quoted from rytis

[…]
[…]
thats why

You’re applying a specific role and its traits to soldier that you think is the correct one – that he shouldn’t be able to instakill a medic because he was never able to before, and because that job belongs to spy and sniper. Who says that this is right?

Let me tell you something. MG is obviously designed to instakill everything at 195 hp and below – but it takes rocketjumping skills, airstrafing skills, timing and luck, and it requires you to leave yourself really vulnerable because you dont have any range-damage weapons during the time where you have the MG pulled out. You’re giving up more than you think to get that 195 damage.

With sniper you’re giving up strength in the scout combo or some heavy damage ability on the flank (when roamer is switching), but in exchange you get the possibility of oneshotting every class from a range where all other weapons are close to useless, as well as excellent area denial that can force the enemy team to push from a certain area. Sniper also has the possibility to survive and do loads of additional damage/picks after that really crucial med pick, given that he’s in a good position and has great aim.

With spy you might once again giving up strength in the scout combo or some heavy damage ability on the flank, but most of the time a whole player actually, because hes gonna get destroyed when they see him – therefore he has to make that one single pick he might get fucking worth it. But in exchange you get the possibility of getting in unseen and get instakills in places where the sniper has a hard time getting a proper shot lined up, maybe because of bad sightlines, a lot of spam or whatever.

Market Gardener is kinda like spy in the sense that you’re giving up one player if he goes for that med pick, because he IS going to get destroyed when he lands, in case he doesn’t already get denied in midair by either projectiles or hitscan. Whereas an MG solly doesn’t have invisibility to help him get in, he has high mobility to help him instead though. MG, spy and sniper will, no matter what you’re saying, still have each their situations where they will do better as instakill-tools than the other one.

You really can’t use the fact that spies and snipers were balanced for instakills as an argument, because the difference is that spies and snipers can instakill EVERY class, whereas solly can only instakill everything under 196 hp. Of course Valve knew that a class with such high mobility as the soldier would be broken if he could instakill every class in the same way as spy and sniper.

So when you think about it, market gardener is balanced for instakills too, just like spy and sniper. The only point of spies and sniper are instakills, its what the class is meant for and specialized in, and therefore you should have to give up something really major for the ability to pick every class instantly regardless of their health. Whereas soldier doesn’t specialize in instakills and still isnt as good at it, and therefore he shouldn’t have to give up something as major as one who switches to sniper/spy would have to give up.

So yes, MG actually DOES make sollies balanced for instakills.

THIS FUCKING THREAD OH MY GOD

Quoted from AnimaL

[…]sollies aint supposed to instakill so ur argument is invalid

who dictates that? Sollies aren’t supposed to get free speed for pressing “3” and medics arent supposed to be able to get 100% uber without healing either then. Stop applying your own unwritten sets of rules to how you think a class’ role should be, please – if everybody did that, we would still be discussing if wrangler should be allowed because some people suggests he should be like an op final boss in a 2d sidescroller game.

Quoted from Nymthae

The balancing issue you didn’t address:

swapping out for a sniper/spy is fairly committed decision – you can’t change it instantly. You have to die, or go back – both of which are leaving you out of the battle.

Not really sure where a soldier with an MG fits that? He can have it equipped without a problem, never use it…oh, OH WAIT LET’S USE IT NOW BECAUSE I’M STUCK SOMEWHERE AND MIGHT AS WELL YOLO LOL.

You talk of the smaller sacrifice versus spy/sniper. That’s where I think this completely differs to the classes that are designed for those high risk high reward roles. I fail to see how you’re sacrificing *any* of the normal capabilities of the class at all, by enabling it.

Yes, and you’re SUPPOSED to commit more to a decision like that because sniper and spy have better, more damaging and more versatile tools to instakill with. You can dodge an mg-solly, but you cant dodge hitscan or instantly registering backstabs (or facestabs, which is the case 50% of the time :D). You can also be lucky/good enough to get more than one stab/headshot sometimes, but you are only gonna get one single mg-hit before you get destroyed, if you even get the hit.

Sniper has the range and the speed (xXMLGXxquickscoping du-uh).
Spy has to get close, but at least he has the stealth to help him get in that position.
Solly has mobility, but he has to get close too, and needs to time the swing perfectly, has no invisibility to get there with and he risks getting air-denied.

Let’s say a sniper’s instakill tool was less damaging and versatile, ala market gardener-ish. He can do a maximum of 200 damage on a charged headshot, the bullet is now a projectile ala huntsman and he has to wait 20 seconds until he can scope in again. How many people do you think would find it worth it to commit to such a decision now?

Ok, just allow it in div3 and lower. Its clear that most people there just want it (and the sub div3 theorycrafting is getting fucking annoying). If it’s a success allow it in the rest of the league.