Forum

Quoted from LuckyLuke

My view on this: simply allow all weapons. Only ban weapons if there is a clear reason that it should be banned – not the other way around. Unlocks are part of the game and banning them makes it harder to get into 6v6 and on top of that makes it less fun to watch.

OMG THIS! I seriously dont get why the majority of 6s players have to be so stubborn and against change. Vanilla may be the most balanced, but also the most boring. Even Robin Walker said 6v6 is stale and I can only agree. More unlocks bring more new and creative strats, make it easier for new people to get into competitive.

As for MG itself, I see no reason why it should be banned. As someone already said, its high risk, high reward, but you risk not doing anything. Getting instakilled is not imba, snipers do it, spies do it, demos can do it with sticky traps. And its not particularly easy either. It may not require actual aiming with crosshair, but you need to be really good at air-strafing, and it can be easily countered, by DODGING.

Also let me tell you why an experimental cup with MG allowed is not a good idea – everyone will want to try the MG out, which means everyone will be using it and going for picks with it all the time, and then people will decide it doesnt work because its a troll weapon. The only way we can truly test it out is by allowing it in one season, so people actually try to win and be effective, instead of messing around with the MG because now is the only chance they get.

Most unlocks add nothing more than randomness and frustration. Almost all of them are just gimmicks that you can’t really prepare for, and when used properly can change rounds. Competitive games shouldn’t be about someone pulling some random unlock that you can’t really predict out of the bag. This is especially true for unlocks that you have no way of knowing of before they are actually used against you.

Also competitive games shouldn’t be about changing everything up when people get bored, it’s about refining a playstyle to the max. See football and any other REAL sport. Obviously there is CS and Quake that also promote the same sort of thing.

Some unlocks are comparable to cheesing in SC – however in StarCraft you can scout cheeses and the opponent is pretty much fucked from that point on. In TF2 if you lose a round just because of a random unlock play in a close game, it can decide the match, and you can’t really scout for all of the items.

Quoted from Rake

Most unlocks add nothing more than randomness and frustration. Almost all of them are just gimmicks that you can’t really prepare for, and when used properly can change rounds. Competitive games shouldn’t be about someone pulling some random unlock that you can’t really predict out of the bag. This is especially true for unlocks that you have no way of knowing of before they are actually used against you.
…

Why should more “randomness” a.k.a. variety be a problem? That’s what makes TF2 fun to watch and also to play, in my opinion. It’s not frustrating if you simply react to them, being able to react to different situations is part of the game, and important.

Not only your enemy, but you have also access to these weapons. Also it’s not like everyone is going to use every single unlock all the time, because that’s simply not going to get you the win. And pretty much all stock weapons are usually the best reliable choice.

I don’t think I’m going to be able to make you change your mind, or any person that thinks this way.. But I think if we (and the ETF2L staff that has the power to change rules) keep thinking “frustation” is why we should not have unlocks, I don’t see the EU 6v6 scene growing much more.

TF2 is a game that keeps changing, but our 6v6 scene isn’t moving along with it. Instead, this way it’s getting more and more separated.

Quoted from Rake

Some unlocks are comparable to cheesing in SC – however in StarCraft you can scout cheeses and the opponent is pretty much fucked from that point on. In TF2 if you lose a round just because of a random unlock play in a close game, it can decide the match, and you can’t really scout for all of the items.

Hahahahaha. what the actual fuck. propably just trolling I guess.

on a more serious note there is honestly no valid reason the market gardener is banned

if people say its a straight upgrade to stock, the escape plan is too because would you really ever want to use the shovel over the utility of the escape plan? Item server being down doesnt count xoxo

going by that logic the ubersaw shouldnt be allowed either because nobody in their right mind would give up their ubersaw for the “ermahgerd faster swing speed” of the bonesaw, be honest here

ban unlocks if they actually change the game on a non-theory crafting level (I’m looking at you pomson), as in, it actually will, and allow those that allow for different tactics and variety (market gardener, quick fix, vaccinator) in an effort to make european 6v6 less stale

ESEA seems to do just fine with this model, it’s honestly much more entertaining to watch too, I’m not saying etf2l 6v6 has entirely bad policy on them but some people are just honestly delusional

Quoted from Rake

What all of you seem to be missing here is that randomness and competitive don’t gel.

Why not? They do. Every game is different, and variety is what TF2 is known for and why (most) people like it. That there is no variety in football doesn’t mean no other sport (esport or not) can have variety to be competitive.

randomness != variety

It’s about the way you guys put it. I could as well put it in a way that suggests that MG actually DOES add variety by formulating it like this: “It let’s you use a whole other weapon to do good damage with than your primary if you’re running gunboats! Isn’t that amazing?!”
Or I could say “How is swapping a scout for a heavy on last defenses adding variety? It just slows the game down, and it’s still hitscan damage!”. It’s ridiculous to formulate things in such a biased way.
Why exactly should an unlock add variety to be allowed? Escape Plan doesn’t add variety, it adds a way for medics to have an easier time healing during rollouts, and a way for roamers to run for medkits faster, AND THATS IT. How is that variety then? Why isn’t that unlock banned for not adding variety then?

This is about adding a new high risk/high reward tool for roamers, and adding some new fun into a class that has barely evolved through all the time it has been used. Allowing funboats was a massive step in the right direction, allowing him to rocketjump everywhere without taking too much damage – so why not continue giving roamer that love? If you can find any other kind of soldier that Market Gardener fits better on, then let me know.

Forcing a med is good, but making him drop with 195 skill-indexed damage is even better.
Getting one rocket off on the demo before getting destroyed is good, but instakilling him (or hurting him enough to get oneshot by a scout at midrange) with 195 skill-indexed damage is even better.
Killing a pocket at 170 hp while losing over half your own health in the process is good, but instakilling him without taking any damage at all is even better.
Knowing you’re gonna die and going for the market gardener with the last rocket in your clip and dying is better than doing 60 pitiful damage that are gonna be healed up again immediately and then dying, because you had no chance of getting a pick with that single rocket left, but you had the chance with market gardener.

No matter what way you view it, Market Gardener gives roamer more possibilities and opportunities for being super aggressive and getting away with it (or at least getting away with it in a better way). Since when is having opportunities a bad thing? I have yet to see an argument for not allowing it that isn’t just purist vanila4lyfem/ garbage.

Market Gardener as an instakill mechanic isn’t in any way more imbalanced than spy and sniper are. Let’s see why:

Spy: Disguises don’t work against good players 99% of he time. Get in a position where you can get behind the guy you wanna pick while your team distracts with spam, decloak and pray to god they don’t turn around. If they turn around, taking out the revolver wont do anything as you get demolished in a millisecond, so go for the facestab (often referred to as xXmlg1337Xx “side”-stabs by many dickheads) and be happy if the source hitreg decides to love you that day, which happens surprisingly often. I think the last 3 times running a spy worked for the enemy team with me on med, it was a facestab on my screen. So technically, you actually DO get at least 2 attempts much of the time because of that.

Sniper: You have the range, and you have more than enough attempts against lower-level teams, as opposed to spy. A lot of the time, it will appear for your victim that he/she got killed through a wall because of lagcompensation. You have the ability to get several other picks in a short amount of time if you’re in a position where you can’t get jumped immediately or if you managed to retreat in time, and besides that you also have the ability to get the pick in close-range too if you’re really good and lucky.
There’s no warning before the first shot if they don’t see your dot, other than them maybe predicting that your team will use a sniper.

Market Gardener:
You don’t have the range, and you only get one attempt. The sound of you rocketjumping is a major giveaway in case you’re flanking with it, and if you’re jumping in from the front you’re gonna get destroyed before you can even reach your target (given that the target is getting properly backed up by the team). You sacrifice health and positioning to do damage with this thing, and you have to carefully consider if it will be worth it compared to rockets before going for it, because when you first swung that thing, its already too late to switch back to RL again. It’s also very very easy to dodge you, as you cant do really sharp midair strafes and keep your momentum with the high speed you get from walljumps, and having low speed is just asking for you to get denied.
Sometimes it will appear that the target got hit from across the map by the weapon, but not nearly as often as spectacular shots around walls etc happen from weird angles with hitscan classes.

So you see, if Market Gardener should remain banned, then why shouldn’t we ban sniper and spy, really? Those two ARE much more powerful than this unlock most of the time.
And now we’re at it, why shouldn’t we ban Ubersaw then? Since the source hitreg is obviously too random for melee weapons with good upsides to be fair.
_________________________________________________________________

You probably won’t get many picks with that thing in prem, but why should the fact that it isn’t as viable on the highest level stop people from having the opportunity to use it to good effect at lower levels? That’s like saying that because kicking the ball from a very long distance in a pro-level soccer match isn’t gonna give you any goals, then you shouldn’t be allowed to do it in a lower level soccer match? That’s dumb.

And I also disagree with the thing about a class that isn’t designed to instakill medics suddenly being able to do so being a bad thing. If it’s skill-indexed properly, there’s really nothing wrong with it, youre just stuck in your old “change is bad”-mindset. Dodging a market gardener IS very easy, you probably just don’t have much experience with doing so because you never play against anyone using the weapon enough to adapt to it…..
….Which again is why it shouldn’t be used all the time. It’s situational, but it can work, and it’s retarded to remove the opportunity if that opportunity can help your team.