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You say 1 pipe on a scout is overpowered, and i’m saying 2 shot by a scout is overpowered. If you change it so it takes more than 1 pipe to kill a scout, then change it so it takes more than 2 scattergun shots to kill a demo. If the sole purpose of TFTrue is to remove random damage, then if a demoman is getting a nerf (losing the ability to 1 pipe kill), then a scout should get a nerf (losing the ability to 2 shot kill).

It just so happens that these ‘averages’ gimp the demoman because you are talking about ‘an extra shot’ where as with the scout, you are talking about removing damage (from the upper end) which doesn’t actually mean he needs less shots to kill a player (as 2 normally does it anyway).

I think every scout would complain if the scout’s scattergun did 87 damage at point blank range instead of 100. But it’s only 13 damage???? But it means the scout needs 1 more point blank range shot to kill a heavy class, just as with this ‘nerf’, the demoman needs 1 more shot to kill a light class (some of the time).

This is why there is an issue with this method of balancing random damage.

And while I was trying to avoid writing another wall of text, take these opinions of mine into consideration.

Currently: (scout @ point blank)
Demo kills scout: 1 shot, 2 shot
Scout kills demo: 2 shot, 3 shot

TFTrue:
Demo kills scout: 2 shot
Scout kills demo: 2 shot

What it should be:
Demo kills scout: 2 shot
Scout kills demo: 3 shot

This is why the low + high / 2 system doesn’t work, because it doesn’t take into account the number of shots needed. It would work fine if every gun was a machine gun, but different guns fire at different rates. A 10 damage nerf on a scout might mean he needs an extra shot to kill a soldier, but a 10 damage nerf on a soldier may not change the number of rockets needed to kill a scout… so the actual value is irrelevant for the soldier as it doesn’t actually nerf his killing ability in a 1 on 1 at all, but it does nerf the scout.

But then how do you work out an exact random damage cap? because TF2 is not all about scouts vs demomen. With scout vs demoman you might say ok… demoman hits for 80 per pipe, scout hits for 86 per point blank shot. But this might imbalance soldier vs scout, or soldier vs demo, and then those values would have to be altered in order to maintain TF2’s current state (including class balance as that is not what TFTrue was designed to alter), but remove random damage.

But that is what TFTrue does. It means a scout inflicts 100 damage at point blank range, which means a garaunteed 2 shot from that distance (no longer 3 shot). It makes a demoman hit for 100 with a pipe, which means a garaunteed 2 shot (no longer 1 shot).

Think about cl2, dl1, nocrits, I’m sure you get it.

One detail makes me wonder: were they many moaners when releasing TFTrue disabling crits? With a spread of a pipe between 60-150 you can consider a 150 damage pipe compared with a 60 as a hidden crit.

It’s this evolution: crits were disabled, valve increased the spanwidth of damage spreads
-> disable spread damage.

Scouts can two-shot soldiers are point blank too, why should the demoman be any different AcidReniX? Bare in mind the soldiers take 100% damage from their own projectiles now, whereas the demoman is still at 60%.

Ok, since you don’t get it, another example.

Currently: (at point blank range)
Soldier vs scout – 2 rockets
Scout vs soldier – 2 shot, 3 shot, 4 shot

with TFTrue:
Soldier vs scout – 2 rockets
Scout vs soldier – 2 shot

Who wins? Scout loses the 3 and 4 shot, and consistently gets 2 shot kills
Soldier still needs 2 rockets to kill the scout.
Scout gains an advantage.

I haven’t tested all of of the values, and nor am I going to…. but you must see what i’m getting at. By using the current tftrue system, certain classes DO get nerfed, while others get stronger. I’m not saying the scout is massively overpowered even though in the two examples i can think of (where i’m quite sure of the stats) he seems to be the one who gains something. The scout probably loses out on another class, or maybe even the shotgun (it might be 2 shotguns hits to kill a scout now instead of 3 ** I dont know this stat).

It alters gameplay and unbalances the classes… it doesn’t _just_ fix random damage as some people are implying.

with TFTrue:
Soldier vs scout – 2 rockets
Scout vs soldier – 2 shot

that’s only correct for when the scout is literally hugging the soldier model, at just a few feet away he cannot 2 shot a soldier, me and anakin tested this. The problem isnt so much the power of the scout at point blank, but the 100% self damage taken by the soldier, which is just the most stupidly retarded thing valve ever did.

arx is god.

I’m just debating points. If it get implemented, i’ll probably let out a ‘ffs tftrue’ a few times in vent for a week, then not really care. But I don’t want something rubbish being implemented so it’s worth debating.

I know its a max damage, at point blank range, but a demoman’s sticky is 110 when directly under their feet (from what i saw, i know you said 160 but just going by what i tried quickly). This would also mean those 150+ stickies without TFTrue would also only be when they are directly underneath a player, and not just ‘realistically’ near them.

but it is still not only possible, but definate that a scout will 2 shot a soldier at point blank, where as without TFTrue, it’s only ‘probable’