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Only 1 FAN allowed
Created 8th August 2009 @ 22:02
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“There aren’t any counters to the fan”
I believe you’ve just been given at least 2. And why not run 2 fan scouts yourself if the tactic is that unbeatable?
And if you give me any rubbish about ‘no skill’ then you’re not playing to win and shouldn’t be whining about it
Don’t misunderstand Sirlian. “Playing to win” has nothing to do with this, because this is a discussion whether a rule would make the game better or worse, not a discussion whether it’s right or wrong to use FAN in a game.
I think it is currently perfectly okay for a scout use the FAN. That’s because it is allowed in the rules and I do endorse playing to win. But that doesn’t mean that the fact that FAN is allowed makes the game more fun, more complicated or more competitive.
surely the biggest problem is not the power of the fan… its how quick it can deal out the damage.
if the reload time was increased and a bigger delay in between shots then it would fire slower than the scatter. As it stands because of the way a you would go about playing scout it has affectively an identical fire rate to the scatter but with more power and a stun!
I don’t ever remember seeing a scout with a scatter fire all six bullets at once with no pauses. normally you fire between 2 and 4 and pause, or loose the target when jumping and dodging; Especially in a scout on scout situation. so the natural pause most scouts naturally do is only slightly shorter than the fans reload time. Giving it the same rate of fire.
the fans weakness is supposed to be that you have to reload after 2 shots and this should make you try and ambush and escape… but because the reload time is so quick it rarely matters and gives you time to re-focus anyway
edit…. also remove the stun if you are touching the ground. knock back should only work on players in the air.
actually….!voteban
IMO, 1 FaN 1 scatter is a more potent combination than 2 Fans. If FaN shoots first, enemy stops dead, then the scattergun has 6 shots to finish him off. Whereas with 2 FaNs, both scouts shoot both their bullets, the guy dies but both scouts are now reloading while the enemy team closes in on them.
but then once you closed in they are reloaded anyway and can pwnt the next guy as it takes like half a second and we now have auto-reload! and having one of each is op as well
I think it is currently perfectly okay for a scout use the FAN. That’s because it is allowed in the rules and I do endorse playing to win. But that doesn’t mean that the fact that FAN is allowed makes the game more fun, more complicated or more competitive.
So you’re saying it is okay to use the FaN as long as ETF2L allows it but as soon as ETF2L bans it, it’s not okay anymore to use the FaN?
I think you understood Sirlin wrong….
Erh. Obviously it isn’t okay to use the fan if it’s banned. Playing to win means that you play to win. This however doesn’t mean you cheat or break the rules.
No, you’re coming from the complete wrong direction. You’re saying it’s not okay to use the FaN if its banned. However, it should be more like it’s okay to use the FaN because it doesn’t need to be banned (cause it’s neither incredibly overpowering nor does it make using the FaN the _only_ viable tactic to win matches)
No, you’re coming from the complete wrong direction. You’re saying it’s not okay to use the FaN if its banned. However, it should be more like it’s okay to use the FaN because it doesn’t need to be banned (cause it’s neither incredibly overpowering nor does it make using the FaN the _only_ viable tactic to win matches)
You just don’t seem to get it. You’re mixing the two.
Sirlin says that you shouldn’t blame a PLAYER for using all the tools that are available to him. The people who blame the opponent for using a certain tactic that is part of the game are scrubs.
But this discussion about the FAN was never about blaming the players who use the FAN. It’s a discussion whether competitive TF2 is better with the FAN or without it, and if it makes the game worse, is a ban justifiable. I personally think it is.
See, when I play TF2, I play to win. I don’t like using the FAN, and I hate when someone else uses it. But when I’m playing with the FAN allowed, I don’t whine, because it’s allowed in the rules.
Can I be any more clear about this?
It’s a discussion whether competitive TF2 is better with the FAN or without it, and if it makes the game worse, is a ban justifiable. I personally think it is.
Yes, you’re right. It’s of course a valid question to ask, but at this point I would like to quote some parts of Sirlin’s book:
Warranted
Here is the whole issue, of course. If it isn’t warranted to ban something, we don’t need to even consider whether it’s enforceable or discrete. The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban.
A bug that gives players a small advantage does not warrant a ban. In fact, it’s common. Many players don’t even realize they are using bugs, but instead view them as “advanced tactics.” Even bugs that have a huge effect on gameplay are usually not warranted to be banned. The game may change with the new tactic, but games are resilient and there tend to be countermeasures (sometimes other bugs) to almost everything.
[…]
How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.
[…]
“It’s Too Good!”
Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!
The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.
[…]
And so on. To be read here http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
tbfh they should have fixed this weapon months ago instead of releasing a slightly improved shitty version of it
@Relentless:
For one, he’s talking about banning things according to their power in the game. We’re now talking about a banning according to its effect to the enjoyability of the game.
For two, while Sirlin is right on many things, I don’t completely agree with his opinions on how extreme the effects should be to warrant a ban. I think a having fun while playing is essential for a game to success in competitive play, and we should think about these things instead of blindly following a guy who’s coming from a beat-em-up scene, where the games are very rarely patched.
I dont think things like “Its not fun to play vs X/ getting killed by Y” are valid arguments. I also dont like getting killed by stickies or find it enjoyable but its in the game, just like the FaN. The real fun lies in finding a counter against the FaN that works and make the FaN players face it ;>
Ofc applying ALL of Sirlin’s opinions about bans etc to TF2 would be silly but the fact is that they mostly are true for every game.
I sort of agree with both of you. Agreed this discussion isnt about playing to win, I’ll concede there. But my gripe with some of these people are their REASONS for wanting it banned. As Relentless aptly put, I hate stickies. I also hate Rockets. Oh and pills. Oh and anything else that kills me. Do you see me bitching and moaning about not being able to counter them? No. He seems to think that if you struggle against a certain tactic/wep that screaming OP and IMBA and trying to get it banned is the answer.
It’s just lazy.
As far as whether it affects gameplay in a negative way, I really think that scouts who cant capitalise on the disadvantages the other scouts have from using the fan, then they just need to work on their strategy and game sense. A ban would be completely unjustified in my opinion.
The other danger of banning such a used weapon as the FAN, is that a lot of players won’t bother with etf2l next season and just play the wireplay league, which does allow the FAN.
This will cause significantly more damage to the league than good.
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