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[Highlander Season 6] Provisional Feedback

Created 16th February 2014 @ 19:00

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Ruskeydoo

TC.Crash

Quoted from Freakie

[…]

The stock weapons are arguably all well balanced. Most of the banned unlocks change that balance for the worse by a large margin.

If the stock weapons were well balanced, then the classes in Highlander would be of reasonably equal value. We both know they are not.

What the stock weapons have is an established “balance” of some classes being much more powerful than others.

Muuki

scn
bad

Quoted from Ruskeydoo

[…]

What you are saying here seems to hinge on the assumption that making a less important class (spy) more powerful will make him similar to other important classes (demo).

For example. The diamondback makes the spy more powerful. By your argument this makes for less diversity in the game. Explain how the diamond back makes the spy more like the demoman?

diamondback doesnt completely change the role/purpose/capability of the class and it still keeps the class the same it is with other revolvers, what people here are trying to say is that unlocks that completely change the boundaries of a class (short circuit after buff) aren’t good for the game in the larger scale and unlocks that are just better than other alternatives (critacola) stagnate the choices you can make within the boundaries of your class

Scissors

(ETF2L Donator)

Quoted from Ruskeydoo

[…]

What you are saying here seems to hinge on the assumption that making a less important class (spy) more powerful will make him similar to other important classes (demo).

For example. The diamondback makes the spy more powerful. By your argument this makes for less diversity in the game. Explain how the diamond back makes the spy more like the demoman?

It doesn’t, but you have talked a lot about this in the past, for example in the short-circuit discussion, where you wanted to make the engineer a hard-counter to the demo because he wasn’t powerful enough.

I just think that the fact that some classes are more powerful, is a major part of what makes it all interesting.

Scissors

(ETF2L Donator)

Quoted from Ruskeydoo

[…]

If the stock weapons were well balanced, then the classes in Highlander would be of reasonably equal value. We both know they are not.

What the stock weapons have is an established “balance” of some classes being much more powerful than others.

You also have to remember that the game wasn’t made for highlander, it’s something we came up with ourselves, and as such some weapons just don’t fit. (according to some, ofcourse)

Jesse James

About the Diamondback ban, I support fully Ruskeydoo his opinion. You can’t ban something for rewarding skill. It is like :
• Banning Ambassador just because it is rewarding good headshot aims
• Banning Widowmaker just because it is rewarding good engineers with awesome shotgun aim
• Banning Diamondback just because it is rewarding good spies who survive after a successful stab.

On the other side, being a person who was always against the unban of Rescue Ranger, I have to say, people just doesn’t want a big change for some reason. Example : People bitching every season of League of Legends, but they still continue to play.

If you want to change anything, just change. People will bitch about something anyways.

I don’t know man. It is the overpowerness and the unbalance of each class what makes him unique. If a scout can kill a medic with 1 shot, then maybe you have to change the meta. For example, engineer is sticking with the combo and spamming minies so no scout comes near the med, and the new cart pusher is, lol I don’t know, sniper maybe ?


Last edited by Jesse James,

Quoted from Scissors

[…]

It doesn’t, but you have talked a lot about this in the past, for example in the short-circuit discussion, where you wanted to make the engineer a hard-counter to the demo because he wasn’t powerful enough.

I just think that the fact that some classes are more powerful, is a major part of what makes it all interesting.

As a support class main – why? I can understand classes having more important roles on maps or game types, but why is it more interesting when 95% of games are decided by 50% of the classes?

Also, hard counter isn’t the right phrase in my view. The short circuit prevents projectiles, but doesn’t particularly harm the shooter. But hey, encouraging team play, who’d want that ;)

Muuki

scn
bad

Quoted from Jesse James

If you want to change anything, just change. People will bitch about something anyways.

Everything works both ways, you could also just say that “Don’t change anything, people will bitch about something anyways”

Just saying “change it people are just whiners” is not a valid argument; it might look good to you and people who support your viewpoint but I’m pretty sure it holds 0 credibility for the people in charge

Quoted from foxy_dave

[…]
As a support class main – why? I can understand classes having more important roles on maps or game types, but why is it more interesting when 95% of games are decided by 50% of the classes?

??? its a team game, 9v9, even the slightest little things might matter on the outcome of a situation. I don’t know what game you’ve been playing this far but everytime i touch this game, situations are decided by different factors everytime

Quoted from foxy_dave

[…]
Also, hard counter isn’t the right phrase in my view. The short circuit prevents projectiles, but doesn’t particularly harm the shooter. But hey, encouraging team play, who’d want that ;)

yeah completely negating the output of a class isnt hard countering

Quoted from Jesse James

About the Diamondback ban, I support fully Ruskeydoo his opinion. You can’t ban something for rewarding skill. It is like :
• Banning Ambassador just because it is rewarding good headshot aims
• Banning Widowmaker just because it is rewarding good engineers with awesome shotgun aim
• Banning Diamondback just because it is rewarding good spies who survive after a successful stab.

This is beside the point but how is surviving after a backstab skillful? Either it’s a 100% success rate because you killed someone on the flank or it’s a 100% luck situation if you kill someone in the combo, not the mention it’s been proven time and time again that playing spy in this way is too inefficient due to risks so you could pretty much override that from the possible situations

and you would be using letranger if you played a grenjabob comm-heavy spy anyway


Last edited by Muuki,

Jesse James

Prob. not, but still… Just an opinion.

It is what big game companies does : Always new things, unnecesarry what people actually wants to have. => LoL, many Valve games etc

And not what the biggest companies does : Every year a new COD + BF and always the same…


Last edited by Jesse James,

Carlos Kaiser

The idea Ruskeydoo brings is really smart, imo the weapon ban meta he proposes is really good, though he takes some things to the extreme.
Wrangler, Rescue Ranger and Gunslinger are allowed, it makes the engineer more powerful, and it’s not a bad thing, it’s a good one. Short Circuit on the other hand is just too retarded right now, even as an engineer main i’d say that one should be kept away.
By looking at the current banlist, i can say that Pomson, Red Tape, Darwins, Short Circuit and Baby Faces just don’t fit the game, sorry Ruskey, it ruins the game too much.
While the Enforcer, Pocket Pistol, Crit a Cola, Diamondback and the Reserve Shooter should be reconsidered imo, some would disagree on the Cola and the Diamondback, but the other three are completely legit, they buff a weaker class while not ruining the game for the others, there is nothing wrong with stronger hitscans on spy and pyro, and with more hp on scouts, Ruskeydoo already said like 10 times that things aren’t bad just because we aren’t used to it.
Vita Saw? An interesting one, before it was banned people were saying that it should be banned because the faster uber rates killed the game, just because people weren’t used to it. If the game had 20% faster ubers from the release then nobody would complain. Since it’s a such strong unlock and it forces everyone to run it it’s actually a bigger problem, you can’t just allow it, it basically boils down if highlander needs slower ubers or faster ones, i’m really not sure on this one.
Close range Phlog ubers could be annoying, as well as a pyro on last that destroys everyone who tries to block it with crits, but it’s legit imo, and it isn’t viable to run full time.
Holiday Punch and Cleaner’s Carbine, obviously not viable to run full time, allow them, i don’t know if the admin team is aware, but the Cleaners Carbine was nerfed, the reason to ban it were the 150 dmg noscope crit bodyshots, they deal 66 dmg now, lol. And if someone stuns an uber with the laughing gloves then they deserve an applause, anyway the Cleaners should be allowed even if you completely disagree with Ruskey.

As far as I was aware, one of the reasons vita-saw was banned was because every medic had to run it, and it ruined the variations. It wasn’t so much the faster uber in general, but the fact that both teams needed it to be on an even playing field.

Quoted from Muuki

[…]
??? its a team game, 9v9, even the slightest little things might matter on the outcome of a situation. I don’t know what game you’ve been playing this far but everytime i touch this game, situations are decided by different factors everytime

Absolutely. But out of all those situations, how many of them has the heavy or demo on one side? Add them up over the course of the game, and you see what I was getting at.

Quoted from Muuki

[…]

This is beside the point but how is surviving after a backstab skillful?

That should have been a successful sap, maybe?

Carlos Kaiser

Quoted from foxy_dave

it ruined the variations. It wasn’t so much the faster uber in general, but the fact that both teams needed it to be on an even playing field.

Maybe i don’t understand something, but how is it a problem at all?

Fuxx

SDCS!

Quoted from foxy_dave

As far as I was aware, one of the reasons vita-saw was banned was because every medic had to run it, and it ruined the variations. It wasn’t so much the faster uber in general, but the fact that both teams needed it to be on an even playing field.

You mean like how engies need to always run wrangler on defense?

More and more I’m starting to agree with Xacher here and I must support the vita-saw now. Highlander relies critically on ubers/kritz/quickfix, far more so than 6v6. Without them, excessively dull stagnation follows.

Ruskeydoo

TC.Crash

Quoted from Scissors

[…]

It doesn’t, but you have talked a lot about this in the past, for example in the short-circuit discussion, where you wanted to make the engineer a hard-counter to the demo because he wasn’t powerful enough.

Valve wanted this to happen… You know, those guys who are very successful professional game designers ;) Though, yes, i think SC gives engy a really interesting new role in 5cp where he is otherwise rather irrelevant.

Quoted from Scissors

[…]

I just think that the fact that some classes are more powerful, is a major part of what makes it all interesting.

Why? That’s a massive assumption that you have yet to support with a decent argument.

Quoted from Scissors

[…]

You also have to remember that the game wasn’t made for highlander, it’s something we came up with ourselves, and as such some weapons just don’t fit. (according to some, ofcourse)

You’ve only been playing TF2 since July 10, 2011… Valve implemented highlander on feb 3, 2010: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/February_3,_2010_Patch The talk going around at the time was they wanted it to take off as a comp format.

Popcorp

Im wondering, why Frontier Justice is allowed while Diamondback is banned? It takes skill to kill someone with a backstab and get crit and also stupidity of engineer to leave his buildings if no one is covering them, than Placing a mini sentry somewhere where no one can see it and let it get Crits for you, which REQUIRES SOOOO MUCH SKILL to spend 100 metal for 1 lil thing that gives you crits

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