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Quoted from CrashSite

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Yes, but there is no incentive for the lower divs to join. They see it as a bad league, that offers them nothing. These are the same ppl who don’t go to LANs and don’t get prize money.

As is said above, you get ppl to join a league by having a good community and a good website. If you think this is isn’t how it should work, tough, it is. Instead, you insult the league that these ppl care about and act like dicks, flaming those who support etf2l and its ruleset, you have no interest in helping tf2 grow, otherwise you would have thought about the problem. Instead you want your view to be correct.

Theres no incentive for lower teams to join? Why not? Because they can’t play with vanilla+medlocks? I don’t understand, like ETF2L and any other tournaments, theres a different ruleset, how does that take away an incentive?

Quoted from M0re

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I am merely pointing out you are incorrect. League has been spitting on the top players for few seasons already, guess you didnt know that as only now it came to point where the players/teams decided it’s enough. TBH I rather have lans and growing community driven by those lans (usually these things go hand in hand) than slowly dieing game where it comes to a point that players cant come up with a new strategies/exploits on their own and have to use public unlocks as excuse to get something going on in the playing field.

This is not about unlocks. They have not been ‘spitting’ on the top teams. They try and please everyone, the vanilla combat classes was a step forward, instead of pressing this, they are quit.

But this is about TF2, if you want to promote it there are better ways. Going further, promoting ESL is being done in such a way, that it is hurting ESL badly. I have gone into the reasons why this is. The seperation between the top and bottom of the league is getting wider. Instead if everyone can come together, it will not only help improve the community but also further tf2, ur aim.

Quoted from CrashSite

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Atm ESL offers most people nothing as the things it will bring, more LANs etc, having no effect on them.

I’d argue that a proper ac system is something. Less fishy and random bans would be something that everybody wants.

I dont see why should i want to play in other league 1 is enough for me.

Kaidus, you’re right, people are lazy. But if they don’t go through the effort of reading past etf2ls front page what are the odds of them going through all the effort required to make their whole team sign up for another league and then schedule games for it? Particularly if that league has a long standing reputation for having a complicated and difficult to use website.

As such I don’t think you’ve thought through your own argument and most of the previously stated flaws for getting ESL sign ups still hold.

This is what you have to be prepared to combat. ESL offers nothing to the casual user, they like the game was it is, they love the community in etf2l, the website, the maps, the rules.

To get ppl over to ESL it is about offering incentives for them to go. I am not talking about prizes tbh. It is a good website, either no or a good AC client and a relaxation of rules such as no merc. People have no interest in being selfless, even those who are promoting TF2 in ESl aren’t. They want bigger LANs and more money, and it is those same ppl who have an chance of getting any of it.

If you want it help, offer to redesign website. Offer your time as admin and start playing with lower div to build trust and thus demonstrate the need for tf2 to grow.

Quoted from kaidus

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I don’t recall trying to dissuade anyone from believing in the other reasons, I’m simply stating that I believe it’s ETF2L’s duty to do the kind of things I’m proposing. I also don’t recall speculating about the kind of benefit such advertisment would actually bring besides ‘more than none’. Any percieved passion in my posts that may have lead you to believe otherwise was merely provoked by the garbage ex

It is not their ‘duty’. It is completely subjective, their role is not to promote tf2, they can if they want, it should even be expected of them, but they are not obligated to. The benefit of it is neither here nor there, people do NOT like ESL, people will sign up to it if it offers then fun/good service. ATM is seems like ESL is not wanting to advertise, it is the Prem boys who I hear talking about it, not then. ESL greedily snatched the Prem players up with the Vanilla rules. It does nothing to cater to the lower divs who have voted with their participation or lack thereof, much like the Prem boys did with etf2l.

I find this all disingenuous, no one, even in Prem, seemed to give two shits about ESL, certainly not to the level that it seems to be at now. But suddenly it has become of vital importance that everyone joins those Prem teams in help pushing the game forward. How come no one was as vocal as this last Season, you had a couple of months to get advertisement and articles and refine the site and AC client, but until the etf2l boycott non of this happened. Stop pretending that this is an issue that the Prem teams always voiced their concerns on. I heard a few mutterings every Season, but no time is really committed to get the lower Divs involved, and it seem only to the benefit of those same top players. When it suits people they turn to action, now that ESL suddenly matters the voices are getting louder, you demonstrate that it is only when incentived do people actually respond, so learn from yourselves and actually do something, rather than demand that a post on the etf2l front page will help. The ESL league needs to shake up, and it seems the Prem players are all up for it. SO dedicate a couple hours a day and make it a good community and website. Be the ones who talk to sponsors and get something for everyone.

Quoted from kaidus

I believe it is their duty. Cba to go into a debate of deontological or political philosophy, won’t help anyone.

Also if that second slice was directed at least partially to me, it seems pretty dumb to automatically group my views with ‘everyone else in prem’. Keep in mind that in any previous season of ESL I was a division 2 player at max so really had no voice in any such matters. If you look heard though you’ll find some year old posts of mine that suggest prem teams don’t play etf2l for a season so that esl gets attention – not out of malice or in any dramatic sense, just a logical and legitimate refocus of “pro” tf2 to where it should be.

Also people didn’t care as much last season for three reasons:
Unlocks weren’t as out of hand.
We still had EMS.
Aequitas sucked (my timeline might be wrong on this one).

I do not consider it their duty, but it seems we must agree to disagree on this point, so I will move swiftly on.

Although I was including your view with those of the rest of the Prem, it was a more general, directed at everyone who suddenly has taken up the banner. But I will now direct my comments at you.

The overall point of the previous post was to point out two things, the first being that the sudden change of heart about ESL. Taking your three points why no one cared, I would say that non of those points really matter. The number of unlocks that are used are far different to the number simply allowed. ETF2L has banned most of the unlocks for the most used classes (aside from the medic), this will mean that the majority of the game will be played without unlocks. Even then, especially in officals, I am willing to bet the majority of off-class unlocks used will be very small, simply because they are worse. I really do not see the sniper running the huntsman, nor do I see engineer running gunslinger on last, where he will most likely to be played. If that is the reason for the switch I think it is a poor one. I would have said last season would have made more sense to switch away, rather than this one.

Furthermore, I think, especially in the lower Divs, that no one cared that desperately about EMS before it was taken away. I do not remember seeing much support nor even remembering anything that occurred around it.

Lastly, ESL wire is perceived the same way the old AC was, this is one of the main reason why people will not join the league. It has not much changed in terms of annoyance, and after these years of playing without needing to run an external program to play tf2 it is not hard to see why it has failed. The frustration that surrounds it would put off most people, let alone those more casual competitive players.

On a small aside, that leads in my main point, it does not matter if you are div 2 or div 5, making your voice heard is possible, the mentality that surrounds this is harmful to tf2. If the Prem players are the only people who voices matter then it will isolate the rest of the community. I think this is partly the reason why ESL is doing badly. It seems to cater for the top end players and no one else, it waiting for the Prem response to the unlocks, then came in to take them.

But my main point. My main point was this: if you want to get people to join ESL, the way it is being done is actually harmful. The reasons behind joining any league, especially one where a team has no actually prize to play for will be for fun. This is through a nice community, like these forums offer, but the ESL is not the same, being cold and dead and now populated by people have has seemingly shunned the league that as many people claim they made, but I would agree that it is equally as true that the league made them. Then there is the website, humans have a tendency to not do things that are hard, the ESL website is almost unusable, it puts off many before the league has a chance to prove itself. We have talked about the AC client being a further step in a wrong direction, it is much like the website, another barrier before they can play, one that is not needed. Then there is the rule set, for example, the no merc rule is crippling to many teams, the more casuals ones, who might need a merc for a game, if they are forced to default it because of that rule, then they see it as a leagues fault, a league that is stopping them play the game they love.

This leads me on to the actual point. It does not matter about posts on forums or on the front page of etf2l. If you really, actually, want to help ESL grow, then you need to improve it, on top of that you need to gain the trust of the lower Divs, as it is hard to make people chance, especially when you seem out of touch. So I will make a list like you did and this is what is needed to be done:

-Improve the website for ESL, including forums and recruitment

-Improve the perception of the community aspect of the league

-Volunteer to be admin and help change the rule set and scrap the AC client

-Start working with the lower Divs, play with them in pickups, don’t talk down to them, on forums and elsewhere, if you have time, mentor them as that builds strong relations.

-I would personally advise coming back to etf2l, even if you continue to be vocal about your concerns of unlocks, although I think that you actually were catered for and you could have pressed your advantage next season.

-Lastly if you want to help tf2 grow, then do things. Don’t write on forums, participate in organising things. I am currently writing for Cadred and organising something else that may or may not happen, but would undoubtedly help tf2.

That is I have to say and I leave you with this: if you want to help tf2 grow, you have to do things, not say things.