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Dead Ringer Ban Discussion

Created 25th October 2016 @ 15:18

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Hildreth

geoff
bad

Quoted from scrambled

sorry for spamming
[…]
I think you misunderstand what I mean. I’ll use Sniper as an example here because I’ve used Spy as an example so much. There are situations in Highlander where more than anything you need a sniper pick. The easy way to do that is to win the sniper 1v1. However if your sniper is losing every 1v1, getting a sniper pick relies on one really amazing play, which will be even harder to pull off considering the amount of space a dominant sniper denies. The reason the that it was banned in UGC was that it is a very hard to kill a player like this.

Now if you want to argue that the razorback should be unbanned, could you also argue why the darwin’s danger shield should remain banned also please.

You misunderstand me, I know what your logic implies, it implies that in every situation you must do x to win. Not true, the game relies more on individual ability, tactics, experience, teamwork, good decision making and utilising classes effectively in the right situation. What you’re doing is generalising the effect of one class, or two classes, or three classes or more are “too powerful” and your team “needs a pick”. In reality, there are many different ways you can play against a class in this scenario. You never, ever NEED a pick, you just NEED to win the game, teams choosing to GET A PICK are making a tactical choice (even if it’s percentage wise the best strategy) this is still different from NEEDING a pick in a situation to win. Basic example in 6v6 – Team elects to suicide a player to go sniper, then wait for a pick before uber exchange – They don’t have to do this, they could run kritz, try to recycle the uber, try to pick flank with uber, try to create space with uber, try to sack the point during the fight, they could park the bus and let the roundtimer run out and try to wipe middle so they got uber advantage – Tactical choices are endless.

Take your example of a “needing a sniper pick” – When do you ever “NEED” a sniper pick to win? A sniper pick gives you an ADVANTAGE in a fight, but you don’t NEED it to win. Their sniper could miss, he could be spammed out, could be distracted, you could push an angle where he isn’t utlised, he could just get 1 kill before he’s neutralised if your team chooses to engage.

This isn’t a problem with balancing a class by eliminating unlocks, this is an issue with how people play and their reaction to losing. If a sniper is having a good game, he deserves praise not a discussion on how we can weaken his impact on the game. Few snipers had this ability, the only one I ever faced in a match that I felt was the match winner for the opponents was Elysium for Chessclub in a wireplay match, he got 50+ frags against us. He played very well that day, I reviewed the Demo and saw the scout we were using Quad was not properly utilising his ability as Scout to shut him down, that we pushed too often from clear sightlines, that we didn’t communicate his positioning effectively even though our spy at the time Fearboy was in a position to, Zoob didn’t spam rockets enough during downtime, I didn’t spam enough in his direction and so forth.

I did not go on the forums and request we ban the razorback so our spy could backstab him easier.

Not even going to argue the point about the Darwin’s Danger shield, it’s redundant to this discussion and it cannot be defined unless we have a clear indication of what the purpose of the whitelist is and a definition of what is meant by “broken/unbalanced/overpowered weapons”.

Now that you have been suitably educated, it is time to move the discussion back to the Admins about whether they can give us a clear purpose of the whitelist and define all these associated terms to with weapon bans.

Grenja

TAY

Quoted from cloudy

bureau doesnt play around their sniper lol also dr ban is silly lol

Cloudy hasn’t been the same since he left Vietnam. He can seldom close his eyes without opening them again at fear of Spies lurking in the jungle trees. Not that you could ever see the bastards, mind you. They were swift, and they knew their way around the jungle like nothing else. He remembers the looks on the team’s faces as he walked into that village and… oh, Jesus. The memories seldom left him, either. Sometimes he’d reminisce – even hear – Ceejaeys spanish nonsense He remembers the smell of Raptor’s Lynx Africa like nothing else. He always kept a can of Lynx Africa with him. The boys are gone, now. He knows that; it’s just that he forgets, sometimes. And, every now and then, the way that seven looks at him with avid concern in his eyes… it makes him think. Sets him on edge. Makes him feel like he’s back there… in the jungle.

Hildreth

geoff
bad

Quoted from scrambled

I mean its not like there have been many other reasons offered other than “It’s annoying”. I think that the only time that “It’s annoying” was argued was vs the short circuit, and no one seems to have defended that.

I haven’t mentioned it, but the same logic of the argument applies to the SC it’s just the weapon is used less and Engies seem to be less salty (or we just blank them out of our minds when they post their opinions like Doom).

Hildreth

geoff
bad

Quoted from kKaltUu

etf2l in a nutshell

Why can`t we have an item vote ?
*Gets the vote*
Why can`t admins just force the whitelist ?

Genius

This is by far the most annoying comment I have seen by the admins

Instead of addressing the issue you’re just going on the defensive and trying to blame the community when you have made the decision to decide these bans and used this method. I am sure if you examined individual arguments, some who disagree with this ban and complain about the community vote have wanted you to implement a vote previously, but others who disagree will have always been against/impartial to a community vote and you’re villifying them by association.

I have always argued against voting, ALWAYS. Others might not have, but your role as an admin is to make an executive decision on what arguments are best. On this occasion you have gone for the other side of my argument, and the result has been this drama. Hindsight is a good thing for myself (and there is usually some minority of unsatisfied players when it comes to the whitelist) but you only need to look at individual seasons where in the past a vote was used to decide the white list and you will see THIS is often the result of allowing voting on the issue. Now you decide next season if you think this method is still the best (or this season, it’s not to late to revert), despite this level of backlash, then I commend you for at least being consistent if nothing else.

If you’re going to make this decision at least defend it properly. Give us an explanation of why you did it, then we can give you counter arguments against your explanations, then you can consider whether they are valid arguments or not.

Muuki

scn
bad

Quoted from Hildreth

[…]

This is by far the most annoying comment I have seen by the admins

Instead of addressing the issue you’re just going on the defensive and trying to blame the community when you have made the decision to decide these bans and used this method. I am sure if you examined individual arguments, some who disagree with this ban and complain about the community vote have wanted you to implement a vote previously, but others who disagree will have always been against/impartial to a community vote and you’re villifying them by association.

I have always argued against voting, ALWAYS. Others might not have, but your role as an admin is to make an executive decision on what arguments are best. On this occasion you have gone for the other side of my argument, and the result has been this drama. Hindsight is a good thing for myself (and there is usually some minority of unsatisfied players when it comes to the whitelist) but you only need to look at individual seasons where in the past a vote was used to decide the white list and you will see THIS is often the result of allowing voting on the issue. Now you decide next season if you think this method is still the best (or this season, it’s not to late to revert), despite this level of backlash, then I commend you for at least being consistent if nothing else.

If you’re going to make this decision at least defend it properly. Give us an explanation of why you did it, then we can give you counter arguments against your explanations, then you can consider whether they are valid arguments or not.

Yeah maybe you and Steve shouldn’t have left the admin team so that the admin team still had players of higher skill level than Open, maybe in that case the Admin team could take the reins on whats balanced and whats not a bit more by themselves.

Instead we get retards complaining about admins being retards and ad hominems everywhere (I learned this word from 4chan /pol/ today watching threads about american presidential elections).

Also if you seriously consider banning DR a good idea, please remember that spy mains are 50% of the 9v9 community and DR is 50% of spy, which means you’re cutting off the population of 9v9 players by 25% which is 1/4. You should also consider the fact that literally nobody (except grenjabob) is going to actually start playing 9v9 because of the ban.

Also, giving votes to dead teams? Thanks kkaltuu!

Hildreth

geoff
bad

Sorry Mr Muuq, I know I have let you down but I promise to be a better father in the future. I was just a young man who was scared, scared of having a little anime child, I could not handle the 2D and bad animation plus your mother was too good for me as she was a Japanese princess, I will make it up to I swear, you never have to be alone again, you are my baby waifu.

ondkaja

Boomer

6v6 implemented a global whitelist several weeks ago, meanwhile lolhl is still in the dark ages with different whitelists for different leagues. when will lolhl learn from the superior gamemode and ban dr all over the world? probably never :(

Nightmare

inv

I’ve always considered dr/amby spy the best counter to a mini-sentry engie, especially on 5cp maps and koth maps, a soldier or scout alone can’t really do much against a gunslinger engie that is positioned good with a mini up and that engie has good shotgun damage. Let’s take cherryrendezvous for example, he specifically said during our prem playoff that with the DR banned, spies require a lot more skill to get picks. While a gunslinger engie (like cherryrendezvous) suddenly doesn’t have to worry about an amby/dr spy anymore, he can just freely roam. Considering that this season has a lot of koth and 5cp maps, gunslinger engies are going to have so much power if the flank doesn’t work together to counter it.

Like Cherry absolutely dominated in the game against Stacked -> http://logs.tf/1552818#76561198141240900

While he clearly didn’t do as well when I scrimmed him and constantly spammed dead ringer, to keep him occupied -> http://logs.tf/1548783#76561198141240900

I feel like the skill ceiling is a lot lower for a gunslinger engie now, he functions as a 2nd scout with the extra ability to pop down mini-sentries. Maybe I’m wrong about this, maybe not, would like to hear some more opinions from more experienced players.


Last edited by Nightmare,

oxocuboid

(ETF2L Donator)
LOOΠΔ

00:48 – Hildr☺th: Dr should never be banned
00:48 – Hildr☺th is now Offline.

I don’t even need to contribute to the shitpost, Hildreth is basically dropping the mic here.

Grenja

TAY

Quoted from ondkaja

6v6 implemented a global whitelist several weeks ago, meanwhile lolhl is still in the dark ages with different whitelists for different leagues. when will lolhl learn from the superior gamemode and ban dr all over the world? probably never :(

From Highlander in the ETF2L to the publics in the Skial, an iron curtain has descended across TF2. Behind that line lie all the items of the public servers. Dead Ringer, Short Circuit, and Red Tape Recorder. All these famous unlocks and the players who use them lie in what I must call the Pub-sphere, and all are subject in one form or another, not only to Valve’s influence but to a very high and, in many cases, increasing measure of control from GabeN.

Grenja

TAY

Quoted from oxocuboid

[…]

I don’t even need to contribute to the shitpost, Hildreth is basically dropping the mic here.

Why limit yourself by the actions of some mid demoman?

oxocuboid

(ETF2L Donator)
LOOΠΔ

Quoted from Grenja

[…]

Why limit yourself by the actions of some mid demoman?

For myself and for ETF2L, I want to thank Grenjabob for all he has done to heal this thread.
In this outward and physical ceremony, we attest once again to the inner and spiritual strength of Hildreth. As my demoman mentor, Hildreth, used to say, “We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles.”

Here before me is the whitelist used in the first season of lolhl, in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of demomen my mentor gave me just a few years ago, opened to a timeless admonition from the ancient prophet B4nny: “He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to hit 1 pipe in every 4, and to walk humbly with thy consistency.”

This whitelist marks a new beginning, a new dedication within our administration, and a new spirit among us all. An admin may sense and proclaim that new spirit, but only a people can provide the whitelist vote.

Two centuries ago, ETF2L’s birth was a milestone in the long quest for true cancer. But the bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this league still awaits its consummation. I have no new dream to set forth today, but rather urge a fresh faith in the old whitelist.

Ours was the first league openly to define itself in terms of both allowing germans to run it and to embody true TF2. It is that unique self-definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation to take on those moral duties which, when banned, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.

You have given me a great responsibility–to stay close to you, to be worthy of you, and to exemplify what you are. Let us create together a new whitelist of unity and trust. Your strength can compensate for my weakness, and your wisdom can help to minimize my mistakes, only for me to decloak behind you anyway because I am using the dead ringer!

Let us learn together and laugh together and work together and play together, confident that in the end we will have voted to ban another weak class’ better weaponry.

The whitelist dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our admin team–and in one another. I believe ETF2L can be better. We can be even stronger than before we banned the dead ringer.

Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our league, for we know that if we despise our own whitelist, we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no weapon was beyond our grasp.

But we cannot dwell upon remembered seasons. We cannot afford to drift. We reject the prospect of failure or mediocrity or an inferior quality of Grenjabob’s shitposts. Our admin team must at the same time be both competent and compassionate.

We have already found a high degree of personal skill, and we are now struggling to enhance equality of opportunity. Our commitment to geting PORKY to prem must be absolute, our weapon balance suggestions fair, our reserve shooter preserved; the powerful must not persecute the whitelist, and human dignity must be enhanced.

We have learned that more bans is not necessarily better, that even our great league has its recognized limits, and that we can neither answer all questions nor solve all problems. We cannot afford to ban everything, nor can we afford to lack boldness as we ban another spy watch. So, together, in a spirit of individual sacrifice of spy primaries, for the common good, we must simply do our best to ban the Ambassador.


Last edited by oxocuboid,

uubers

FN
-st-

Quoted from oxocuboid

[…]

For myself and for ETF2L, I want to thank Grenjabob for all he has done to heal this thread.
In this outward and physical ceremony, we attest once again to the inner and spiritual strength of Hildreth. As my demoman mentor, Hildreth, used to say, “We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles.”

Here before me is the whitelist used in the first season of lolhl, in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of demomen my mentor gave me just a few years ago, opened to a timeless admonition from the ancient prophet B4nny: “He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to hit 1 pipe in every 4, and to walk humbly with thy consistency.”

This whitelist marks a new beginning, a new dedication within our administration, and a new spirit among us all. An admin may sense and proclaim that new spirit, but only a people can provide the whitelist vote.

Two centuries ago, ETF2L’s birth was a milestone in the long quest for true cancer. But the bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this league still awaits its consummation. I have no new dream to set forth today, but rather urge a fresh faith in the old whitelist.

Ours was the first league openly to define itself in terms of both allowing germans to run it and to embody true TF2. It is that unique self-definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation to take on those moral duties which, when banned, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.

You have given me a great responsibility–to stay close to you, to be worthy of you, and to exemplify what you are. Let us create together a new whitelist of unity and trust. Your strength can compensate for my weakness, and your wisdom can help to minimize my mistakes, only for me to decloak behind you anyway because I am using the dead ringer!

Let us learn together and laugh together and work together and play together, confident that in the end we will have voted to ban another weak class’ better weaponry.

The whitelist dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our admin team–and in one another. I believe ETF2L can be better. We can be even stronger than before we banned the dead ringer.

Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our league, for we know that if we despise our own whitelist, we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no weapon was beyond our grasp.

But we cannot dwell upon remembered seasons. We cannot afford to drift. We reject the prospect of failure or mediocrity or an inferior quality of Grenjabob’s shitposts. Our admin team must at the same time be both competent and compassionate.

We have already found a high degree of personal skill, and we are now struggling to enhance equality of opportunity. Our commitment to geting PORKY to prem must be absolute, our weapon balance suggestions fair, our reserve shooter preserved; the powerful must not persecute the whitelist, and human dignity must be enhanced.

We have learned that more bans is not necessarily better, that even our great league has its recognized limits, and that we can neither answer all questions nor solve all problems. We cannot afford to ban everything, nor can we afford to lack boldness as we ban another spy watch. So, together, in a spirit of individual sacrifice of spy primaries, for the common good, we must simply do our best to ban the Ambassador.

+1

extrasolar

officer

christ I really did make hildreth and goreston upset lmao
I’m being presented with more non-arguments here than when you tell an SJW the gender wage gap isn’t real

Calm down boys, is only a video game :(


Last edited by extrasolar,

scrambled

(ETF2L Donator)
ᵍaₑtᵃ

Quoted from Hildreth

[…]
Not even going to argue the point about the Darwin’s Danger shield, it’s redundant to this discussion and it cannot be defined unless we have a clear indication of what the purpose of the whitelist is and a definition of what is meant by “broken/unbalanced/overpowered weapons”.

The reason that I asked for that, is because the reason that the razorback was argued to be banned is because with it you have to rely on your sniper to win a 1v1 to get a sniper pick in some situations, which is sometimes near essential in say product.

By the logic that you can always just spam the sniper out, surely the danger shield is perfectly balanced, because you will maybe win the 1v1s, but you’re left vulnerable to everything else, right? So surely if winning the sniper 1v1s isn’t the only way to win a game its a balanced weapon?

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