Highlander Season 20: Map Pool Update!

Date November 1, 2019

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Map Poll Results:

The results of the polls can be found here.

With these results in mind koth_warmtic_b6 will be returning to the map pool inplace of cp_propaganda_b16 for Season 20.

To complete the map pool we ask that you please vote on the following poll:

pl_badwater or pl_badwater_pro_v9?

Total Voters: 401

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43 Comments

  1. magistr: V// said:

    holy crap who are these fuckers voting for awful badwater? can we get rid of monkeys in the goddamn vote pole? do u really enjoy eating the same shit 20 seasons in a row? fucking scumbags

  2. MatTj said:

    no fucking way OMEGALUL

    @adje here we go again boi

  3. TBourdon: ᵧaᴸʟₐʜ - :) said:

    this is depressing

  4. MatTj said:

    I voted for badwater stock, because why the fuck not at this point, I’m willing to put up with another 15 fucking seasons of this

    people rather play the same shit tier maps every goddamn season because they lack the brain capacity to learn a new map

  5. Sketis: TBC said:

    thanks for removing propoganda : )

  6. Adje: :) said:

    You basically got no proper insight in the kinds of people that voted for certain maps through this poll, like what div they played, what class they main, who actually participated in the cup or not, you got no opportunity to offer alternatives outside of the listed options etc. It’s as simple as making a Google form of some sort if you can’t have it properly built into the website like other leagues, UGC has been doing this for years.

    Really not surprised about the results in the slightest but maybe actually adopt a proper voting system next time around? The way the data is being interpreted is pretty one-sided, you’ve got roughly half your community voting for a map that is not Badwater yet you still pick it because it got the majority vote. You also should have separated the two versions from the very start to make this a proper vote, now people essentially voted on two maps in one option.

  7. Magicbeans: bronze - Somalia said:

    Oh no so many choices i think i have to go with badwater on this one hmmmm

  8. sun said:

    I guess that’s one way to force badwater in :)

  9. MoreBuckets!: /BIJ/ said:

    🦀Propoganda is gone!🦀

  10. Sodium: (League Admin) - OwC - WCS said:

    @Adje
    We do have proper insight into who voted what, as we can see which player picked which vote option. Thus we can get proper insights into what div voters player and so on. Letting people offer alternatives not in the list will end up with people making a bunch of meme votes. Just imagine a whole group of people come together and decide to vote in millstone, does that mean it is representative? Our on site vote system is the easiest and most visible way of us setting up a poll.

    On your second point, picture a scenario in which a political party receives 50% or more of the votes during an election. You can indeed interpret that as half the people not voting for them, but the rest of the people unify and agree on supporting a single idea. Does that hoewever mean the majority vote is not relevant? Seperating the votes into to seperate version would not make a representative vote. At the end of the poll you would find split percentages of votes devided between stock badwater and v9 as we didn’t allow multiple votes. How would you go about interpreting these split numbers? Adding them up wouldn’t be statistically correct as both voting options are technically independent of one another. We really aimed at polling the general idea of playing badwater compared to the other maps listed and over 50% of the voters want to play badwater which is what counts in the end

  11. FTH: pizza said:

    Fucking bullshit

    Aoshi name your price.

  12. Adje: :) said:

    No you don’t have proper insight into this just by seeing who voted on what unless you are going to bother browsing the experience of every single ETF2L player that voted on this poll and also check if they played the cup or not, and if you actually did that then color me impressed. If you had a similar data chart per division you would have/should have shared it instead of taking a screenshot of some poverty graph that looks like it was made in Excel 2008 in three minutes.

    If you don’t want people to pick meme options then at least have more options than three, picking between Propaganda, Warmtic and Lakeside is rather limited. I also thought we wanted to move away from having triple koth in an attempt to balance out the gamemodes yet there were predominantly koth maps in the vote.

    Also the whole stuff about unifying about a single idea is a complete joke, you literally had two different maps in the same option so that’s hardly one idea no matter how you put it. Just because the map is inherently the same doesn’t mean there aren’t a crap ton of differences between the two that change people’s perspective on how they view the map compared to others. The vote distribution would have roughly been the same across most maps if they were separate options (which would have made it an actual representative vote) but now you’ve set up the vote in a way where Badwater is guaranteed to get the majority vote no matter what due to it being around for years on end and only later on we get to decide on which version we play (and the one version that should be here is not even an option…). The fact that a pro version that hasn’t been updated in months or maybe even years makes it into this cup is a joke on its own, especially while we literally have someone posting his fairly recently updated pro version of Badwater on about the same day.

    I would have preferred a system where I actually got to give a score per map (which was previously done for other cups so why not this one?). I liked Swift and Vigil about equally but I only got to vote for one even though I’m fine with either being in the pool. By being forced to pick out of three options instead of getting individual questions about the quality of the map I’m not able to express interest in multiple maps, indicate previous experience with the map etc. With a setup like that you would’ve actually been able to rate the popularity of the maps, while now all you have is the popularity of Badwater as opposed to the other maps (and you don’t even know the specific version yet, forcing you to create this extra poll).

  13. nubbi: CRUNGE - SDCK said:

    badwater is the best

  14. Piney: 007 said:

    how can I choose between my 2 fav maps!

  15. Mankind: ufuk - MMR said:

    just add hightower :-)

  16. Clark: SDCK said:

    There have now been two separate polls this year: the first one before season 18 which proved badwater is still the third most popular map in highlander overall; the second one now which proved it’s more popular than the two presented payload alternatives.

    If you’re unhappy with the results of the first poll – take it up with the people who voted, not the admins.

    If you’re unhappy with the structure of the second poll and believe it is somehow unfair – refer to the first poll, since the very existence of the second one is futile and it wouldn’t even be created had it not been for the opinions of several very vocal prem players on etf2l discord.

    P.S. Here’s the link to the first poll, in case somebody has already forgotten: http://etf2l.org/highlander-season-18-preseason-polls/

  17. Citrus: kiti said:

    Democracy turned out to be shit. What a surprise. Admins, if you want to change maps like shitwater just do it, and don’t listen to retards opinion. Don’t be a cucks.

  18. 20grams: $$$ said:

    I’m pretty sure that if swift or vigil was added instead of badwater, after 1 season all people would start complaining about bring back badwater, like propaganda last season, we all voted it, then after 1 season guess why warmtic is back.

  19. MoreBuckets!: /BIJ/ said:

    Because i think we expected propoganda to replace Gullywash and not warmtic.

  20. MoreBuckets!: /BIJ/ said:

    Like imo Gullywash should be replaced either with a different 5cp map or something else, its like being played for how long now? lost count tbf.

  21. 20grams: $$$ said:

    Actually i don’t know why last season they put propaganda instead of warmtic, since in the map pool we can see that warmtic got like 63% and gully 60% so yeah i think that was a mistake. But just look, no one complain about gully on this pre season, they all were complaining about propaganda, so that show you how people change their mind in 1 season. If badwater is still played and voted even if people are ever complaining about it, there’s a reason.

  22. samii: ƘƛƝƘЄƦƁOƳƧ said:

    Why so mad? maps are fine

  23. 4hp: 177013 - COGU said:

    eh I don’t hate badwater but jeez game is stale enough as it is without people rejecting any opportunity to play a new map. if it’s something like alloy which was genuinely bad I’d understand, but we had some decent alternatives this time

    anyway, have fun

  24. Stan: Compound - MMR said:

    People complaining about democracy? Wow thats new.
    Personally I think that these polls before the season are meaningless I can already tell that majority of voters are from lower divs (open-mid, even bottom d2), and vote on the map theyre familiar with, therefore they are most-likely to vote on badwater, not even looking at the version, instead of vigil or swiftwater, because they recognise the name badwater.

    Solution to this would be to force a mappool, and at the end of the season make a poll with feedback on it, for example [maps name] 1-5, where 1 is really bad and 5 is great. And based on that you can identify the map/maps most people disliked, and change it in the next season with another map.

  25. BlastFM: SORA⚡️ said:

    clark for head admin

  26. Adje: :) said:

    I had a nice talk with one of the admins on a few of the things I mentioned and also got my hands on some numbers separated by division and participation in the cup. There’s some interesting things to be taken away from it I’d say and while there are some trends that can be noticed it’s still clear that the overall consensus is that Badwater is overall the most popular option the way the poll was constructed regardless of the div (sadly). Nevertheless I do think that the poll becomes a lot more interesting once you start comparing participation in the cup vs. consensus on the maps.

    For anyone else who wants to check it out, the sheet should be public, they’re just the raw numbers but I could probably make some graphs myself if people are into that
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/131IMsUW-Pq1cDgENhYFma4P04sfRhD9gR99m9aBnEzI/edit#gid=0

  27. MatTj said:

    I agree with stan here, he has the right idea, people dont want to step out of their comfort zone so make them do it instead, you could host some test scrims with some of the top teams and ask for feedback to avoid putting in actual trash tier maps, then implement the maps in the official map pool

    I still believe that, if badwater stock were to be added to the map pool as a new map, freshly developped, NOONE would want to play it.

  28. Adje: :) said:

    https://i.imgur.com/fXS6zEi.png

  29. sun said:

    I still don’t understand why we can’t have a newer system with the maps instead considering how much people refuse to want to play new maps, I’m pretty sure RGL HL once had a system to where they had a very large map pool but almost every week they had to pick/ban on certain catagories.
    Week 1 for example they had something like upward by default, however, the next week the option is just ” KOTH ”, here is where you pick/ban between koth maps (for example you could have product,coalplant,lakeside,warmtic etc you name the maps) you could do the same for other gamemodes etc.

    This system might help with the situation right now, it’s a decent middle ground, it both has newer maps to the map pool but you also get to choose which map you want/don’t want to play for the most part.

    However, if this doesn’t work you could always just compromise to replace badwater (or anyother map that people have mixed opinions for) everyother season with a said payload map (even though I want badwater gone forever) just to spice things up and not have this repetitive map pool.

  30. Sodium: (League Admin) - OwC - WCS said:

    Also updated page at the top showing the results condensed into some graphs. Should give a decent overview of the vote splits and the amount of people who voted actually played the cup

  31. mental: 6 - Coal said:

    @Adje: your graphs are quite nice, but just justify the decision of the ETF2L admins. There is no scenario where pl_vigil is preferred over pl_badwater; not when you take the division into account; not even when you take participation in the Cup into account.

    At this point, you shoulf just agree with the majority and move on. Play the new season with a version of pl_badwater or don’t, but don’t blame the community for having preferences that differ from yours. 🤷‍♂️

  32. Adje: :) said:

    I’m very much aware Badwater has the majority on everything, if anything it would be weird if it didn’t cause it has been played for seasons on end and it’s more familiar to just about everyone. But a map can never improve substantially if you’re not going to include it in a season. Some of the better maps in the game for 6s went through this whole trial and error phase by actively being played in seasons, you can only go so far with getting feedback from pugs etc. Look at really old versions of Process or Gully and you’ll get my point that with active feedback a map can really come a long way. But now it looks like we’re just going to be playing the same map pool we’ve been playing for several seasons in a row apart from last season.

  33. quintosh: T9! - CORE said:

    some reddit-tier whining right here
    waah admins only ask prem players
    waah admins are asking everyone now but only listen to prem players
    waah admins are asking and listening to everyone

  34. Wynran: fuku - DLMSDIV said:

    Oh quintosh!

  35. Meaff: NoPahan - ☦FS☦ said:

    hey https://puu.sh/EA8MW/ee9b758ccb.png

  36. GR1M: SPQR said:

    Regarding maps…
    I dont know if this has been done before but for the next season poll we could try to use feedback to create a map pool and then player vote for 5 maps for the season and the top 5 most voted would be selected as the season maps, tied maps could be casted into a new vote to tie brake, can only submit the vote if 5 maps are selected. every map rule could be the same but koth maps would likely have to be played first to 4 and there would only be 5 maps per season.

    Regarding posts…
    I think when posts are made they could be announced in etf2l discord to reach a larger audience and thus getting more attention, creating an announcements chatroom would be a good idea to give use to the discord.

  37. HartzFartz: (ETF2L Donator) - T9! - ᴏғᴏ said:

    People who argue for the UGC vote system have no clue about the consequences that this had for UGC itself. Several Platinum teams (and im also talking about NA plat that take ugc seriously) dont scrimm the new maps in preparation for the official.

    Also both leagues have played different maps over the seasons and the badwater upward steel etc are still around for reasons. Shit maps like gravelpit, borneo, barnblitz, reservoir got phased out because people disliked those maps much more. Same goes in UGC, we played cascade, ramjam, borneo, millstone , vanguard and most of them havent returned.

    PS: IF the UGC voting system is so much better then why do they keep playing a version of badwater 95% of the time.

  38. supra: (Trial Admin) said:

    GR1M:

    Regarding posts…
    I think when posts are made they could be announced in etf2l discord to reach a larger audience and thus getting more attention, creating an announcements chatroom would be a good idea to give use to the discord.

    we’re working on it

  39. Citrus: kiti said:

    @HartzFartz Badwater/upward are still here for a reason. This reason is they were in hl from the beginning and people kind of use to them. Now we have good sideways like borneo/vigil/barnblitz/summercoast/millstone and tons of other good maps(and i’m only talikng about pl now!), but people like you won’t ever vote for them. You don’t understand that the ability to adopt for a new map, to explore it and to invent new strategies is one of the key skills in this game. It’s much easier to say “bruh this new map is so bad”, then try to understand it right? You’d rather prefer to play same 2 pl maps year after year until this game will finally die, and it’s heartbreaking to see that there are at least 45% braindead players here like you. So my message to admins stays very clear, if you want to change something like maps/rules/weapons etc, don’t ever use public vote to decide. Adolf Hitler had like 45% votes too.

  40. Cloverleaf said:

    cp_gorge, anyone?

  41. yahoo: SDCK said:

    Goddamn democracy firt trump now badwater reeeeeee

  42. Cronk: ︻芫═一☺ - Lucrosa said:

    insert vclox “this is how democracy works” quote

  43. AxioMr: Bd'tF - CHIMP u18 said:

    Vclox_: want it? said:
    Mon 29 Oct 2018, 11:00

    If everyone’s so up in arms about the ban how about next time weapon bans are being decided you join in :) . I had an opinion about the spycicle (as I’m sure many pug players know) and others in the ban discussion either agreed or disagreed. It seems most people there though agreed with me that its dumb otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And about the whole spy thing, I was going to name say someone like Adje as he is talked about his displeasure of the weapon before, maybe hate was a strong word but it is certainly not a onesided opinion. They didn’t just see me complain about it and instantly ban it, they took many other prem players opinions and judgements. For example, Nubbi and some others saying how the beggars should be un-banned was discussed but clearly the overall opinion was to not allow the weapon. If you are trying to blame me or other brain dead players go for it. But clearly a majority ruled in favour of banning the weapon and that kids is how democracy works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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