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Quoted from byte

[…]

Not entirely sure what to say other than sigh.

1stly LTG for whatever and maybe disrespectful reason wanted to turtle on purpose as a troll (fun), they could do the exact same thing if they wanted on gullywash cp1, with 2 sg’s 1 heavy on the ring 1 pyro near the door. try and beat that and come back to me.

2ndly When you pushed to last, you’re focus fire was so poor, 1 guy being ubered is not going to beat most teams, and to add insult to injury there were 2 sg’s which could be taken down before an uber even started i.e. from long distance.

3rdly, you should watch the src tv yourself and see what you would do differently, because usually when someone turtles the last point there’s always a combo to break it. For example when there is a sg and heavy on gully last what do u do? you go sniper or spy maybe and sniper or spy + heavy combo or switch to kritz etc.

I think it’s more of a case of not assuming it’s like your standard typical map of trying to get in for free without having to think (shock horror) but on last I doubt a team would get such an opportunity to do 2 sg’s and heavy and suceed not with a good sniper and 1 aggro soldier n demo ubered pair.

If you want a lil tip, actually capping cp1 is the key to winning it (sounds obvious) but getting on that point is more of an advantage because you can go deep behind it and it caps very quickly. (1 second slower than cp1 badlands).

Anyway if you need anymore help let me know.

Cheers

Byte

First, the initial turtle was serious, as we had seen how effective it was from another team. Using this we pushed from last and won the round. They tired multiple tactics, such as kritz, heavy, sniper and spy.

Second, because one map is a good turtle map, doesn’t mean yours should be. That is the argument of a child: I might be bad, but he is worse.

Thirdly, although focus fire was poor, there is a problem when there are two sentries both covering the point and each side, on each side of the area. This means that you have to kill one at least, then hope the defenders mess up.

Fourthly, it is not as easy to spam down sentries as you made out, depending on the position they are put in, part of the demo was us trying to find best positions for them. The left side is basically impossible if a demo is holding it. Top righ is hard if you have a solider there, and if you are not careful you can be forced in the tunnel which is another 40 secs almost certainly. And then far back at mid, which can be spammed by solider and heavy. This is also the reason why sniper is not as viable as on Gullywash, which you pointed out was another hard to push map, if done properly.

Lastly, yes this defense is not unbeatable, by any measure, but it is annoying as hell to push. Even on Gully there are 5 entrances to come from, so spamming, sniper picks or rush point is much more viable. The only thing that a team can do is get on point, but with two sentries covering it, it becomes impossible to jump and very hard to stay on it at all.

So thanks for presuming that are tactics are for “maybe disrespectful reason[s]” and I would like to point out that much of the criticism that has been directed at the map has been shrugged off it seems. Although it is a new map and people are still getting used to it, I would consider looking at it and seeing if it is problem.

Although things should not be balanced for the lowest skill up, if the best defense should not be the easiest to perform, so I hope the last can be balanced for all divisions.

Quoted from CrashSite

[…]

First, the initial turtle was serious, as we had seen how effective it was from another team. Using this we pushed from last and won the round. They tired multiple tactics, such as kritz, heavy, sniper and spy.

Second, because one map is a good turtle map, doesn’t mean yours should be. That is the argument of a child: I might be bad, but he is worse.

Thirdly, although focus fire was poor, there is a problem when there are two sentries both covering the point and each side, on each side of the area. This means that you have to kill one at least, then hope the defenders mess up.

Fourthly, it is not as easy to spam down sentries as you made out, depending on the position they are put in, part of the demo was us trying to find best positions for them. The left side is basically impossible if a demo is holding it. Top righ is hard if you have a solider there, and if you are not careful you can be forced in the tunnel which is another 40 secs almost certainly. And then far back at mid, which can be spammed by solider and heavy. This is also the reason why sniper is not as viable as on Gullywash, which you pointed out was another hard to push map, if done properly.

Lastly, yes this defense is not unbeatable, by any measure, but it is annoying as hell to push. Even on Gully there are 5 entrances to come from, so spamming, sniper picks or rush point is much more viable. The only thing that a team can do is get on point, but with two sentries covering it, it becomes impossible to jump and very hard to stay on it at all.

So thanks for presuming that are tactics are for “maybe disrespectful reason[s]” and I would like to point out that much of the criticism that has been directed at the map has been shrugged off it seems. Although it is a new map and people are still getting used to it, I would consider looking at it and seeing if it is problem.

Although things should not be balanced for the lowest skill up, if the best defense should not be the easiest to perform, so I hope the last can be balanced for all divisions.

Now why would you assume those pointers are for you when it was trick who asked it? Or do you speak for trick? =)

This reply was funny none the less to what you’ve said above; Sure^

Cheers

Byte

I wouldn’t say gully last has undergone serious changes, certainly not compared to obscure.

Quoted from byte

[…]

Now why would you assume those pointers are for you when it was trick who asked it? Or do you speak for trick? =)

This reply was funny none the less to what you’ve said above; Sure^

Cheers

Byte

Well, first I was really bored. Secondly the points you made could be answered by anyone <3

Quoted from Daleth

Aesthetically, I really don’t know what the fuck is going on. There is no set “theme” that is seen in pretty much every other map, and random blocks, flora and rocks are scattered around in pointless locations. Middle CP is in a BLOODY VOLCANO for crying out loud.

This is a good point, but perhaps one for after the gameplay has been sorted?

First thing, thanks for the info. I’ll to give some feedback to every point you raised and when i disagree it’s just my pov and how I’ve seen the situation from that match and I don’t really want to lay it out as real problems as I think the feeling for the map will likely change when we get more used to the map.

So perspective is a div4 team with little to no experience on the map playing a stronger opponent.

Quoted from byte

[…]

Not entirely sure what to say other than sigh.

1stly LTG for whatever and maybe disrespectful reason wanted to turtle on purpose as a troll (fun), they could do the exact same thing if they wanted on gullywash cp1, with 2 sg’s 1 heavy on the ring 1 pyro near the door. try and beat that and come back to me.

2ndly When you pushed to last, you’re focus fire was so poor, 1 guy being ubered is not going to beat most teams, and to add insult to injury there were 2 sg’s which could be taken down before an uber even started i.e. from long distance.

3rdly, you should watch the src tv yourself and see what you would do differently, because usually when someone turtles the last point there’s always a combo to break it. For example when there is a sg and heavy on gully last what do u do? you go sniper or spy maybe and sniper or spy + heavy combo or switch to kritz etc.

I think it’s more of a case of not assuming it’s like your standard typical map of trying to get in for free without having to think (shock horror) but on last I doubt a team would get such an opportunity to do 2 sg’s and heavy and suceed not with a good sniper and 1 aggro soldier n demo ubered pair.

If you want a lil tip, actually capping cp1 is the key to winning it (sounds obvious) but getting on that point is more of an advantage because you can go deep behind it and it caps very quickly. (1 second slower than cp1 badlands).

Anyway if you need anymore help let me know.

Cheers

Byte

I’m aware that we have issues regarding focus fire and I’m sure thing would have turned out differently. However spamming down the Sentrys wasn’t all that easy or at least didnt seem that way. Peaking out of any enterance seems really dangerous, as you kind of have to expect stickys on both gates and the hallway is really spammable and directly overlooked by their heavy. Whichever entrace we choose, once called i think it takes their demo max 1-2 seconds to get there and spam it. Looking at the map afterwards, i guess getting both soldiers to Maingate would have worked quite well.

We deiced to only get our Demo in on the pushes to clear out Sentrys and try and force their uber, we didn’t wanna send anyone else because of the Sentryfire and the Heavy on the “Spire” We didn’t think a jumping Solly would get anywhere with the Heavy/Sentry just blocking him midair and getting scouts in with Sentrys didnt seem viable as well. Also our Medic would have been forced to split so much, we didnt think our demo would be invulnerable long enough to get both sentrys.

Well after all we are not really used to the map yet, but i really think that point encourages turteling and that it takes significantly more effort to succesfully attack it than it takes to defend it.

I’ve written this from memory, I will watch the STV later and might harass you on IRC if you don’t mind ;)

-slate

Quoted from Arnold

I wouldn’t say gully last has undergone serious changes, certainly not compared to obscure.

I was referring to the changes between cp_gullywash and cp_gullywash_pro, which is what I would call serious changes to the last point while still being the same map. The changes between cp_obscure_final and cp_obscure_remake would justify an entirely new map name in my personal opinion.