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koth_proot

Created 15th November 2022 @ 18:45

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Spleep

I’ve been told that proot’s been gaining some traction in the EU scene so I figured I’d make a thread here.

Feel free to leave your thoughts, comments and concerns.

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/proot.13306/

HartzFartz

(ETF2L Donator)
IA6

There are all these sniper sightlines that are annoying to play against.

https://imgur.com/a/pQws9Of

Most of them put the sniper in minimal danger, due to the position being far away and difficult to be countersniped.

So basically, if someone pushes the cappoint, there’s a high chance of getting headshot without even seeing the sniper. The worst part is that there’s little option to do anything about it. The enemy sniper is far away enough that you can’t chase him down. And even if you go out of the sightline, the enemy sniper can just wait for the next dude to be shot, or move to the next nearby post giving a new sightline.

In my opinion the shown sightlines need fixing(at least most of them). The funny thing is that the mapcreator understood it with “Sightline #6” and blocked it off with TWO fences/walls, but kept all the other ones.

Here’s an overview of the sightlines https://i.imgur.com/GJ7Kn0b.jpg
Plant the bomb in the red marked safe spot.

On a positive note, the map looks nice.

vibeisveryo

Quoted from HartzFartz

There are all these sniper sightlines that are annoying to play against.

https://imgur.com/a/pQws9Of

Most of them put the sniper in minimal danger, due to the position being far away and difficult to be countersniped.

The map is heavily balanced against sniper and Spleep has done a great job at making sure of this. Sniper is, of course, strong – just not dominant to tactics on the whole map.

With this in mind, none of these spots are any more egregious than a lot of the stuff y’all tolerate on the maps you play. We’ve not had issues with sightlines in NA playing Proot this season, that’s for sure.

Quoted from HartzFartz

Here’s an overview of the sightlines https://i.imgur.com/GJ7Kn0b.jpg
Plant the bomb in the red marked safe spot.

Yes, if sniper is in all of those places at once – otherwise it only takes the team with the slightest bit of competency to call where he is.


Last edited by vibeisveryo,

Sizzle

.gg
DOGE

Quoted from HartzFartz

There are all these sniper sightlines that are annoying to play against.

https://imgur.com/a/pQws9Of

Most of them put the sniper in minimal danger, due to the position being far away and difficult to be countersniped.

Notice how almost all of these sightlines are in the backline, its really easy to get stabbed or picked off by flank if you keep playing in those spots. I’ve been playing RGL this season and have played many games on this map and I can guarantee you that most of the time you have to play *with* combo if you want to live. Just think of product – if the sniper constantly goes china/cliff/concrete he will just keep dying, he has to play pocket or rock to survive most of the game. So when you are with your combo (whether you are holding on flank or on the point) the sightlines aren’t that good. I would say this koth maps is way better balanced around sniper than maps like product or warmtic – so i really don’t think this is an issue.

draltoady

EU

Quoted from HartzFartz

Here’s an overview of the sightlines https://i.imgur.com/GJ7Kn0b.jpg
Plant the bomb in the red marked safe spot.

The amount of cognitive bias against new maps is absolutely mind-boggling – these sightlines seem intimidating because they’re new, but if you objectively compare them to those on already-established HL maps, you’re making mountains out of molehills.

I’m focusing on the drawing you provided because I don’t think you seem understand the magnitude of there being an area of the point, on your own side of the point, that can’t be seen by a sniper in any common defensive spot. That does not exist on any koth map that’s ever been played in HL. Ashville/coalplant have no cover on the point so a shutter peek will always see all of a point, lakeside is completely open due to the bath angle, cascade has the tunnels angle, and the closest ‘sniper safe spot’ is playing on the enemy’s sign on product. That, though, is super unsafe for obvious reasons and can still probably be seen by a sniper playing concrete depending on how far up he is.

Also not mentioned is that there is no “god spot” on proot where a defensive sniper can see every way into the point – product cliff / cascade batts / basically anywhere on ash/coal/lake. There are 3 ways into proot’s point, but no sightline watches more than two of them unless you’re pushed up on their side of the flank area, which is extremely easy to pressure a sniper out of. More importantly, any defended sniper spot can only see one of the two entrances behind point, meaning it’s entirely possible to start a push and edge while their sniper’s alive. And not in the “if we all peek him at once he can only kill one of us” way – if you have good comms, you can adapt to what angle he’s covering and take the other one. Good comms enabling dry fights without worrying about sniper makes HL play so much better, you wouldn’t believe it was the same game mode.

And its not just a map that shits on snipers, as the fact that he can only watch one angle at a time rewards more adaptive gameplay. Your sniper calls he’s watching the right entrance, and it tips off the rest of your team that they can focus spam in the left entrance to maintain coverage over both. And snipers still put up good numbers and have huge impact from what we’ve seen in test pugs, map cup games, and the first officials in RGL, but they have to play smart and with their team to get them rather than chaining an engineer to them while they sit alone and 1v9.

I’m super biased in this but there’s a reason why proot’s become my favorite HL map over the span of like 6 months, and it’s because it offers a vision of HL that puts sniper in line with the other HL power classes rather than having it in its own tier. It feels like scout, sniper, and demo are all equivalent value picks instead of dealing with sniper being a prerequisite to push.

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