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Soldier Weps, Overpowered or not?
Created 18th December 2009 @ 05:13
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I’d say it either needs to be toned down drastically if it is not to be given a drawback, or it needs some penalty for the ones using it to, yet again, discourage general use but give it a defined purpose.
That I can agree with. I am unsure on the exact numbers of damage it does in relation to what your hp is but I can understand the concept of it allowing you to win fights you don’t deserve to win. The thing I like most about it is giving the soldier the ability to retreat on low hp.
Example: Soldier on 40hp with two scouts on their way to finish him off, whips out equalizer and retreats to the rest of his team.
Last edited by Ched,
But why do they need to be both as effective in airshotting? The idea of sidegrades is that unlocks are better in certain areas then the other weapons.
No one said (that i remember) they need to be equally effective, just that there shouldn’t be a reward of 200+dmg for hitting a now easier airshot. Nor any reward imo.
I’ll go one further and say that from my perspective, i can now airshot and i couldn’t before – i think the damage if anything should be LESS from an airshot with this gun, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel, and i was SHIT at airshots. I think nightbox was better than me.
Mini crits break it. The guys I kill here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQLBfG3OMVI ) are full health or close to it. Normal rl wouldn’t have done this.
LOL. What a video :DD
They’re HOPPING at you, one at a time, in a straight line when you have a DH?
That’s like recording a video where half the enemy team walks into a sticky trap and then calling sticky traps gamebreaking. It happens, it’s devastating, but it relies on a big mistake.
Just because there are people who don’t know how to counter it doesn’t mean it’s OP.
DH has huge pros and huge cons. It gives you insane streaks, but it also can leave a scout alive with full hp and your medic dead. It’s just a very inconsistent weapon IMO.
It might be more powerful in 6v6, it might be less powerful. I’m not sure yet, but what I can say is that the game isn’t broken with it.
Demo doesn’t hop. I don’t hit them while they jump, i hit them when they are on the ground. They go up that high because I placed my rockets just right. Normal rl would have done the same job, but without the bullshit damage and they prob wouldn’t have died.
It’s not an inconsistent weapon. The user is inconsistant. Shotgun is inconsistent because of the pellet spread.
And versus scouts you still have your shotgun, which is a beast vs scouts.
Last edited by Koeitje,
it should probably scale with the height off the ground. higher the target = more damage
Mini crits break it. The guys I kill here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQLBfG3OMVI ) are full health or close to it. Normal rl wouldn’t have done this.
LOL. What a video :DD
They’re HOPPING at you, one at a time, in a straight line when you have a DH?
That’s like recording a video where half the enemy team walks into a sticky trap and then calling sticky traps gamebreaking. It happens, it’s devastating, but it relies on a big mistake.
Just because there are people who don’t know how to counter it doesn’t mean it’s OP.
DH has huge pros and huge cons. It gives you insane streaks, but it also can leave a scout alive with full hp and your medic dead. It’s just a very inconsistent weapon IMO.
It might be more powerful in 6v6, it might be less powerful. I’m not sure yet, but what I can say is that the game isn’t broken with it.
Demo doesn’t hop. I don’t hit them while they jump, i hit them when they are on the ground. They go up that high because I placed my rockets just right. Normal rl would have done the same job, but without the bullshit damage and they prob wouldn’t have died.
It’s not an inconsistent weapon. The user is inconsistant. Shotgun is inconsistent because of the pellet spread.
And versus scouts you still have your shotgun, which is a beast vs scouts.
You missed my point and you’re proving it.
My point was that they’re trying to counter for normal RL. If they would’ve countered for TDH, they wouldn’t have died.
I’m using the word inconsistency as in the sniper rifle. If we assume someone has perfect aim, the weapon becomes totally different and definitely OP, so we can’t assume it. Sniper rifle is so inconsistent (nobody gets insane kill streaks 100% of the time) that it makes the weapon balanced. But still, when a kill streak like that happens, it’s devastating.
The same thing happens with TDH imo. It’s sometimes insane, and sometimes you just can’t get anything done.
Last edited by compton,
I’m using the word inconsistency as in the sniper rifle. If we assume someone has perfect aim, the weapon becomes totally different and definitely OP, so we can’t assume it. Sniper rifle is so inconsistent (nobody gets insane kill streaks 100% of the time) that it makes the weapon balanced. But still, when a kill streak like that happens, it’s devastating.
The same thing happens with TDH imo. It’s sometimes insane, and sometimes you just can’t get anything done.
Certainly, but you cannot really compare hitting a projectile which has a hitbox of some no. of units anywhere on an enemy’s body for the same damage to hitting one specific, and small, hitbox with a lowered FOV, a zoom-time, a 200 ms delay on headshot registration. The mechanisms of sniper caters to inconsistency, whereas a soldier has potential for a far greater degree of consistency due to leniency inherent in the class, particularly considering he can pump out rockets at an interval of 0.8 sec and with a far greater margin of error than a sniper for dealing his damage.
Last edited by BERSERKER,
Currently I don’t know if I would pick TDH or the normal RL to a clan match so based on that, I think the weapon is decently balanced. One thing which most ppl probably agree that it shouldn’t do crits if the opponent just jumps. Imo you should actually bounce him up first before being able to get that mini-crit.
Seems like many of you are judging TDH to be OP because you got killed in a situation where you normally would have survived against RL soldier. And then you’re completely ignoring the many situations you survived while RL would have killed you for sure.
Last edited by Moose,
I’m using the word inconsistency as in the sniper rifle. If we assume someone has perfect aim, the weapon becomes totally different and definitely OP, so we can’t assume it. Sniper rifle is so inconsistent (nobody gets insane kill streaks 100% of the time) that it makes the weapon balanced. But still, when a kill streak like that happens, it’s devastating.
The same thing happens with TDH imo. It’s sometimes insane, and sometimes you just can’t get anything done.
Certainly, but you cannot really compare hitting a projectile which has a hitbox of some no. of units anywhere on an enemy’s body for the same damage to hitting one specific, and small, hitbox with a lowered FOV, a zoom-time, a 200 ms delay on headshot registration. The mechanisms of sniper caters to inconsistency, whereas a soldier has potential for a far greater degree of consistency due to leniency inherent in the class, particularly considering he can pump out rockets at an interval of 0.8 sec and with a far greater margin of error than a sniper for dealing his damage.
I wasn’t comparing, I was just giving an example of what I meant with the word.
Last edited by compton,
Currently I don’t know if I would pick TDH or the normal RL to a clan match so based on that, I think the weapon is decently balanced. One thing which most ppl probably agree that it shouldn’t do crits if the opponent just jumps. Imo you should actually bounce him up first before being able to get that mini-crit.
Seems like many of you are judging TDH to be OP because you got killed in a situation where you normally would have survived against RL soldier. And then you’re completely ignoring the many situations you survived while RL would have killed you for sure.
I’m actually starting to think the old RL is better in most situations. The much larger splash damage is really useful. The extra speed of the tdh is actually not that helpful.
Sure it makes it really easy do airshots, but otherwise you still have to do some kind of prediction.
I find it almost as easy to kill scouts with direct hits in close range with the old RL. When they are that close the time to impact is very short anyway. If they are slightly more far away I have to do some prediction with both rocket launchers, but the old one have the advantage of hurting the enemy even if I miss slightly.
Sure the tdh can instakill scouts in close range, but if you get a direct hit with the old launcher usually this puts the scouts off track and flying somewhere somewhat out of control. This usually makes it very easy to finish them off anyway.
I think the tdh is a perfect sidegrade. There are situations where it could be useful, but also many situations where the old one is more useful.
Nice maneuvering here. It’s a normative question, if one rocket should instagib many classes with one simple shot on a hitbox, not about “both weapons are useful in different situations -> balanced”.
Last edited by atreides,
Me using TDH for the first time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXQXGmklsA
“One single life with the new direct hit in a pickup. Some nice actions (0:55 and 2:15) but also a lot of missed shots.”
*TDH is fine. It allows you to make some good streak. Like a sniper does when he aims properly.
So, if you aim properly with TDH (and with a bit of success), you’ll do decent damages. Otherwise, you’ll be powned.
And using TDH means you’ll be weaker versus a good scout (that know how to use jump straff & stuff) if your shotgun aim isn’t good enough.
Just solve the minicrit when you hit a character who is jumping.
*Equalizer is also fine. When you would have died before, you now have a chance to survive (or better : kill your opponent :D:D:D).
And for the first time in TF2, it makes the soldier more autonomous.
*Banner : reduce the minicrit duration from 14sec to 8 or 10sec.
edit : @ben -> 0:25 = kill a medic when you’re aiming a soldier is a good compromise :p
Last edited by Hansa,
Mini crits break it. The guys I kill here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQLBfG3OMVI ) are full health or close to it. Normal rl wouldn’t have done this.
LOL. What a video :DD
They’re HOPPING at you, one at a time, in a straight line when you have a DH?
That’s like recording a video where half the enemy team walks into a sticky trap and then calling sticky traps gamebreaking. It happens, it’s devastating, but it relies on a big mistake.
Just because there are people who don’t know how to counter it doesn’t mean it’s OP.
DH has huge pros and huge cons. It gives you insane streaks, but it also can leave a scout alive with full hp and your medic dead. It’s just a very inconsistent weapon IMO.
It might be more powerful in 6v6, it might be less powerful. I’m not sure yet, but what I can say is that the game isn’t broken with it.
Demo doesn’t hop. I don’t hit them while they jump, i hit them when they are on the ground. They go up that high because I placed my rockets just right. Normal rl would have done the same job, but without the bullshit damage and they prob wouldn’t have died.
It’s not an inconsistent weapon. The user is inconsistant. Shotgun is inconsistent because of the pellet spread.
And versus scouts you still have your shotgun, which is a beast vs scouts.
You missed my point and you’re proving it.
My point was that they’re trying to counter for normal RL. If they would’ve countered for TDH, they wouldn’t have died.
I’m using the word inconsistency as in the sniper rifle. If we assume someone has perfect aim, the weapon becomes totally different and definitely OP, so we can’t assume it. Sniper rifle is so inconsistent (nobody gets insane kill streaks 100% of the time) that it makes the weapon balanced. But still, when a kill streak like that happens, it’s devastating.
The same thing happens with TDH imo. It’s sometimes insane, and sometimes you just can’t get anything done.
How would they have countered it? Only “counter” is staying on the ground, to prevent from a 1feet of the ground mini crit. But by staying on the ground they are vulnerable to being juggled, which my video shows, and as a result of that the mini crit hits. It also shows that you fail to understand what exactly is the problem.
Sniperrifle isn’t inconsistent, the user is. The sniper always hits where you point it. If you miss it’s user error, not a fault of the weapon. The shotgun and scattergun are inconsistent because of the spread. In the hands of a bot the sniper rifle is 100% consistent, the scattergun still isn’t. Just say a player USING the sniperrifle is less consistent, it’s not the weapon.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Me using TDH for the first time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXQXGmklsA
“One single life with the new direct hit in a pickup. Some nice actions (0:55 and 2:15) but also a lot of missed shots.”
I liked it, that’s what playing with it is like. The obvious scout at spawn got hit with 1 rocket in the face and died. He shouldn’t have been there in the first place and hope to get out alive. The second scout I noticed killed your medic below spire as you jumped up- he got away alive. What I’m trying to get at is that imo instagibbing 125 HP classes is fine, especially scouts. It’s fairly easy to avoid TDH, just now scouts can’t run in like idiots anymore and still hope to achieve something, they gotta be a little bit more ingenious and/or wait for a distraction (or, you know, work together :o). So this means the TDH could actually encourage teamplay if used in comp (I sure as hell won’t use it), what more could you ask for.
Imo it’s just a problem with people’s perception. The soldier should be fearsome, you shouldn’t approach a soldier (or 2 even) and expect to get away alive as scout, again, that’s the point of playing a class-based game. The scout should be at a disadvantage unless approaching unseen from behind- in which situation he still does have the advantage. Even taking on TDH soldiers in full frontal combat isn’t a guaranteed loss, the person with the better movement and aim respectively will win the fight. Yes the soldier has an advantage, but he is supposed to.
P.S.: Demos still can instagib people, can they not?
My proposed TDH fix (several possibilities, hopefully all possible or may not require much work to implement):
The main change would be that direct shots to those that are in the air are awarded with minicrits if the target has been off the ground for a certain duration of time. This would prevent trivial shots (like a target jumping or falling off of a crate) become minicrits and also means that more timing and possibly prediction is needed! This alone I shall call (A).
However this does nothing to discourage simply shooting the target soon after he’s rocketjumped (I believe this is what leads to the majority of complaints making airshots too trivial now since the target can be sat before he’s even had a chance to airstrafe). (B) would solve this by making the damage that TDH does to airborne targets much weaker (say something like 50 max, don’t scrutinise too heavily over this exact figure though) until the target time has been reached.
The quick ones among you would realise that there is nothing to prevent you from hitting them once to stall movement and then, however many seconds off the ground, hitting them for the double airshot minicrit. The fix for this could work in two different ways. (C) would be that the timer for the target being airborne would run alongside a timer for explosive damage (99% of cases when a target would be launched up into the air for an extended period of time). This would mean that the airshots would still be trivial, but juggling a target with airshots means that he takes no insta-gib shots. Would also reward skillful heavy juggling that keeps targets airborne or prevents movement by not resetting the timer.
(D) on the other hand would reward minicrits for all airshots, but takes follows the same principle as (B) in that the airshots before a certain time are much weaker than after a certain amount of time being airborne. The minicrit affect would also cause lots of knockback, making the second shot incredibly unpredictable and ensures that a target hit during the ‘easier’ part of the rocketjump isn’t punished by getting juggled. The minicrit damage would be incredibly weak and would have to account for the likely fall damage as well, but would work as a preventative tool. You can either choose to go for the kill or simply prevent the soldier from jumping with a weak, but effective airshot. I’d say that the knockback of a crit (/minicrit) would be too much, so it could just be built into TDH to do +x% knockback on airborne targets that wouldn’t affect a target that gets (effectively) insta-gibbed by an airshot.
Thoughts and comments please.
Last edited by Vali,
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