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Forum

Class Limit 1/2 - Reasoning

Created 21st August 2008 @ 22:50

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sherpa

Here’s my issue with it:

You go 1-0 up, your team has great teamwork, 29 minutes left on the clock, you decide to defend the whole game (slight exaggeration).

2 demomen co-ordinating together can lockdown rooms. Yes it can be broken, but it’s not fun.

Another example:

Both teams rush the middle point in granary, you look up, you see 8 grenades launched towards you. It’s effectively artillery that requires (and here’s the bit that’s going to enrage demomen) no skill.

Again, it can be broken- but TF2 6v6 is not fun when playing against 2 demos.

8 grenades at any one time is a lot of spam.

16 stickies can cover a huge area.

For those who think I’m a demo-hater -> http://steamcommunity.com/id/sherpa/stats/TF2

I can appreciate a demo- a good demo is skilled, smart and fun to watch. Watching 2 demos serenade whole areas with a fire-and-forget mentality is crap.

KOVACS

I would say that having played every main class in the game extensively, I found demoman to be the one which scales best with overall skill level and understanding of the game. It takes a lot longer to get to a level where you can play demo proficiently than it does to play for instance, scout, sniper or soldier.

Each class has intricacies that you have to learn but the demo has the most. Success on a demo relies far more on gamesense than the other classes, that being spatial and situational awareness skills and a complex understanding of how to predict what your team and the opponents team are doing.

Using pipes and stickies to kill in open areas while dueling can often be a lot tougher to manage than other classes weapons, while equally it can be a lot easier. Its all situational, hence the point above about situational awareness.

The issue that most seem to fail to address is how the use of one or two demomen impacts on the overall gameplay and the team, not whether or not the demo is overpowered on his own. My personal standpoint on this matter is in favour of DL1, for a few reasons:

Watching matches and playing matches using DL2 is less enjoyable. Use of 2 demomen tends to slow down the pace of gameplay, makes it less interesting to view and more frustrating to play, with a net effect of most people having less fun. This is something to consider for the future of TF2 outside of matches too.

Think about the prospect of the CGS taking on TF2 as the team based FPS in the future. Clearly, their target is to gain higher viewer ratings, and so they will naturally be concerned with how enjoyable viewing the matches are in the 6v6 format. They will likely come to the same conclusion, that DL1 makes for more open and constant gameplay, so if we decide to employ DL2 just now then CGS picks up the game, teams are going to have to adapt to DL1 format if they want to compete in drafts for the chance of getting into a franchise.

The Demoman on his own is not overpowered in my opinion, but 2 Demo’s as part of a well organised team are. I mean, you can argue that playing 2 demo’s makes you more exposed to scouts ripping it up, but really in a well organised team it’s been shown that it doesnt. The Demo is only at considerable risk if he splits off from the rest of the team to an extent that he can be forced into a 1v1/1v2/1v3 duel with scouts/sollys etc with nobody on his team to back him up. Otherwise, he has the PERFECT defensive weapon in stickies for denying scouts access to him and can easily retreat to medic or cover from the rest of the team.

Demo’s are weak in 1v1 duel scenarios against scouts, but it’s so easily countered by having other players in the team back him up, including the other demo. Stickies vs an opponent that is pre-occupied and distracted fighting someone else are pure filth in terms of how effective they are, even against scouts.

Taking wotr as an example, they’ve shown the strength of two demo’s time and again recently with good teamwork. Granted, their team is composed of players with exceptional skill which obviously helps a lot, but following the simple format of having both scouts guard one or both demo’s they can quickly lock down a control point, particularly central points before the slower classes like medic, soldier, heavy of the other team can get there to back them up. Add that the potential damage output of 2 demo’s targeting a single player on the other team is rediculously high, and the prospect of pipe spam into areas over objects (such as granary mid crates or badlands trains as examples) which other classes simply can’t do makes for a setup that is rediculously hard to counter on offense.

On defence DL2 has even greater favourability, able to lock down doors and chokepoints with 16 stickies between them. This naturally forces the attacking team to either uber before crossing the sticky traps (at the expense of valuable uber time) or use a class that can harass or kill one of the demo’s to remove the trap, which is basically limited to scout, sniper or spy.

The former can have an exceptionally difficult time finding a weakness in the defence of a well structured team through which he can move and harass without getting owned, and the latter two classes are comparitively weak allrounders and relatively easy to counter. Using either sniper or spy to an extent reduces the attack on a point to 5v5, because neither are any good on a push for control of an area besides getting an initial pick. Add to this that in many scenarios the sniper and spy have extremely limited ability to contribute to the team effort and we have a position where playing 2 demo’s has forced the opposing team to change their setup to one which leaves them almost 1 player down in parts of the map compared to the 2 demo setup which is useful everywhere.

dunc

infs
dp.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Excellent post.

wai

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Depch

I’m just wondering what’s going to happen to the level of frustration about spam if/when the demolimit 1 arrives, for example;

Considering BL middle;
2 Demos * 1 Soldier = 4 Rockets, 8 Grenades, 16 Stickies = 28 projectiles
2 Demos * 1 Heavy = 8 Grenades, 16 Stickies = 24 projectiles
1 Demo * 2 soldiers = 8 Rockets, 4 Grenades, 8 Stickies = 20 Projectiles
1 Demo * 1 soldier * 1 Heavy = 4 Rockets, 4 Grenades, 8 Stickies = 16 Projectiles

We had used the second option against 3rd option and there was lots of whine from the other team even tho we had only 4 more projectiles to spam to the train/doorway. Later on different games we switched the tactic to the fourth one against the same team using the third tactic, well this time the advantage has been for the other team and everything has been gg and stuff even tho it’s been annoying for us like hell to get spammed more and getting more splash damage in our side then they do.

Just wondering where’s the line, will the whine about spam and stuff even drop out if we ban 2 demos, we did vote for 1 demo, but I only think it’s the best way to go like the highest/top level tournaments/cups (PCGS & sort of) and unify the rulesets for competitive play.

KOVACS

Its worth considering the time element aswell. With DL2 on badlands the demo’s can get to mid point much quicker than soldiers, indeed if they sticky jump right they will reach the doorway from house onto mid about 2 seconds after the scouts, giving them an extra early presence on the point and time to spam off a few pipes or stickies before any other class even reaches middle.

Wlv

RaWr ::

Awesome first post KOVACS, in regards to the second, thats a valid point, but not really a point I could put in to the “pro’s” of banning demolimit one

trams

-><-

I think that the only acceptable nerf for the demo is to prolong the time from then you launch the stickys until you can detonate them, as now it is to easy to detonate them beside your enemy in the air.
And no, its not easy to defend yourself 1on1, and it shouldnt be, thats what other classes should do.

Smofo

Yes, I got what you all saying about spam this that, but we worked on 2 demomen it works we don’t sticky up whole buildings to defend we have 1 attacking demoman 1 defending one.
We worked on playing with 2 demomen, you could think of counter strategies to fight it.
You will also have if you do DL1 like badlands will always be 2 soldiers, 1 demoman, 2 scouts and a medic, kind of boring? but now as one is specialized in the other you have more diversity.

Nodachi

vR|

As a scout i agree with byte, one sticky shouldnt kill me but for the limit of 1 it sucks. The reason is there are Teams with 2 good demos and their only way to actually compete is to play with them instead of forcing one of the Demos to go play soldier.

Evil

Only faggots play demoman and every team should only have one faggot, otherwise comms suffer, im looking at you byte.

Norrland3000

EDIT..

hmm, tbh there is loads of difference between demoman projectiels and soldier projectiels! they are weaker and they have direct impact wich make people have the opportunity to hide behind objects on the map while demoman projectiels just can get shot anywhere and do way more damage.

2 demoman put loads of pressure on a team (who is slower to come out because of the two soldiers, iam not even speaking from a heavy)

Again this is only general, ye good teams know how to block the 2 demo tactic with putting loads of pressure back etc but still we have to see everything in general.

And as we can see from the poll, in general people have the feeling that two demoman’s should be restricted.

Solution to valve? make stickies explode when they are shot by the opponent team :) would be a fair solution tbh ^^

perry

[MIPC]

perhaps some people should have their scouts going for either one of the enemy demo’s instead of having them sit in their canyon, that’s what most teams seem to do =)

Wlv

RaWr ::

vs another skilled team that simply doesn’t work ^^^^, they’ll have their demomen protected by their scouts and/or soldier

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