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Still makes the fan superior in 1v1 because of the RoF.

And maybe I need to install wallhax to predict every single scout running around a corner to prevent myself from being dicked. Or maybe I need to figure out a way to prevent an enemy scout to run around a corner straight in my face.

Oh and while you’re at it if you could go ahead and find a way to stop the whine that’d be just great.

Still makes the fan superior in 1v1 because of the RoF.

And maybe I need to install wallhax to predict every single scout running around a corner to prevent myself from being dicked. Or maybe I need to figure out a way to prevent an enemy scout to run around a corner straight in my face.

Oh and while you’re at it if you could go ahead and find a way to stop the whine that’d be just great.

It’s not a whine mate.

And +1 Vali

(but remember Vali, you shouldn’t go around a corner, shouldn’t let the fan scout come around a corner, or let the scout go near the medic, or hell I don’t know what, maybe the counter is to just sit in the spawn and run 2 engies to sentry farm?)

OK, I know this is a crazy idea, so bare with me.

You could *try* telling your scouts to keep their scouts under control.

Crazy, I know.

OK, I know this is a crazy idea, so bare with me.

You could *try* telling your scouts to keep their scouts under control.

Crazy, I know.

Ah the L2P argument again, please elaborate on how to exactly keep them under control if they bring superior firepower to a fight.

“superiour firepower”

Ah, I must have imagined all those scouts saying the scatter is better in a 1v1/2v2 situation.

If you allow an enemy scout to get close enough behind your medic to shove his FaN up the medics ass then you do in fact need to L2P.

Now I’m off to bed, sweet dreams.

Then don’t meet a FaN scout round a corner.

There’s so many ways to counter a FaN scout, it’s just because it’s quite ‘new’ and a lot of players haven’t worked out the methods yet.

A quick example is the ‘save your double jump’ when you are a scout fighting against a FaN scout. Against a regular scout, a lot of people often recommend you don’t double jump as you become a sitting duck while you are in the air. Against a FaN scout I find it’s best to jump for many reasons. 1) If he hits you, you are a sitting duck anyway so you aren’t losing anything by jumping. 2) If you jump, and he hits his first shot, quickly use your double jump. You will still get hit, but most of the time it puts the player off of getting that snd shot meatshot. Providing the first shot isn’t a dead on meatshot (which most of the time it isn’t), their 2nd shot won’t do enough damage to kill you. Asuming you can aim, you will have the advantage while he is reloading and should be able to get the 1 or 2 shots left you need to finish him off.

I myself prefer fighting against FaN scouts, unless I have to jump up to the spire, then I wish they weren’t using that gun, but other than that, I find FaN scouts are a lot easier to kill than a regular scattergun scout.

While that’s more or less what I do, the reason why most people do not doublejump against regular scouts is ’cause the second jump leaves you in a vulnerable arc very similarly to what the FAN knockback does. If the FAN scout is decent at adjusting his aim and fires at max rate, then you *might* evade a full meatshot by doublejumping, but at the same time it’s a game of chance and it’s a human error. Either that or FAN scouts can delay their second shot a tad and then pump ya full, as FAN scouts learn that behavior.

It’s a counter based upon the circumstance of human errors. Additionally, if you jump like that, and do not use your doublejump, it also leaves a predictable path, making you vulnerable (as feinting a doublejump while singlejumping rarely works from my experience, and particularly not unless you’ve doublejumped a lot prior), though this is purely anecdotal along with what you presented.

In addition, FAN scouts often just switch pistol after getting a meatshot or two okay shots, as it will finish them off quite quickly. In your given scenario, if the FAN scout switches to the pistol, he would win if you take more than 1 shot to kill him during your presented ‘reloadphase’, as assuming the FAN scout has done 50% damage on each shot, which is about 55 damage, it will only take a single pistol shot to finish off. You say 1-2 shots after shooting second shot. If he quickswitches to pistol instantly and fires a shot, he will be victorious, even in the situation you presented, as long as it’s ‘2 more shots’ instead of ‘1 more shot’.

Bear in mind for your hypothetical ‘counter’ to work the FAN scout will either have to miss enough so he does less than 50% of FAN’s max damage on both shots, or the scattergun scout will have to 2/3-shot him while being knocked up (having his aim thrown off) and doublejumping away, and that the FAN scout does not delay his second shot but just mouse1s, instead of waiting to see how the scattergun scout will act.

But, all of this is circumstancial ’cause theorycrafting based on individuals’ capabilities is ends in a loop, and therefore it can’t be treated in terms of non-ideal situations.

If two scouts of perfect ability match up, and fire at the exact same time, the scattergun scout will be thrown into the air, but since he has perfect ability, he will still score a meatshot at the FAN user. The FAN user will now proceed to execute him due to faster rate of fire.

If it’s a non-ideal situation, you cannot say ‘if you do this and this’, but instead you have to summarize the strengths of the various sides. You have to generalize far more than ‘if you do this, he does this, and you do this’ otherwise it’s invalid as it’s far too much conjecture and theorycrafting for illustrating the point of balance.

Given the previous situation, if it’s non-ideal, the scattergun user still has most of the disadvantages. He has to compensate for his aim by being thrown up, is in a far more vulnerable position movement-wise, as he can’t strafe, and even doublejumping after leaves him in a vulnerable arc, whereas the FAN scout has freedom of movement, and if he hits 50% damage shots with his FAN, he doesn’t have to reload but can go over to pistol (same goes for scattergun, obviously, but it’s to prove that the ‘reload’ argument isn’t as heavy as some people make it out to be) and just hit 1-2 shots with it.

Basically, theorycrafting isn’t effective in proving a point, please instead present a scenario where it’s on an even playingfield specifying the constants instead of having one with unknown variables.

And, klu, seriously, please go back to CSS. I thought you were an okay guy, but you’ve demonstrated a complete lack of maturity as you refuse to provide arguments, you tell Koeitje it’s like talking to a wall while you only say ‘THE POLL SAYS IT ALL’, whereas the poll results do indeed work as an indication, that isn’t a counter-argument and you’re acting like a child. I don’t want anyone who disagrees to gtfo but I want anyone who doesn’t provide decent arguments to gtfo. AcidRenix is the only person I’ve seen from the FAN supporters who attempt to provide arguments.

In addition, you go “and the winner is” as if you’ve contributed to the discussion in some way, but both you and your teammate have done nothing other than attempting to use poll results as an absolute argument for its balance. Please, just think a little and provide your reasoning for why you think it’s balanced rather than reference the poll constantly, if you can’t do that then please cease posting. : )

By popular demand – tl;dr: AcidRenix does well in raising some points, though I feel it’s too circumstancial and weapon balance issues are not best discussed with conjecture and theorycrafting of situations depending on an individual’s personal abilities, but only in ideal situations or comparisons.

what about long distance fights?
what about medium distance fights?
what about height differentiation and how it affects both fan and scatter?
what about having a corner nearby to hide after shooting 2 shots quickly and to reload?
what about the distance for the stun to occur?
what about if you know the scout is coming around the corner because you actually have good communication?
what about the FaN scouts inability to jump when shooting?

and it goes on and on…

you can’t prove your point by describing situations at all. Even if you use “perfect” circumstances.
Fact of the matter is that due to it’s massive drawback in some situations the FaN will have to dominate others. And therefore it’s extremely annoying when a FaN scout is in an avdvantagous situation.

It is not game-breaking as i’ve said before, but it’s not fun to play against in general and i’d like the mechanics to be changed. but it’s not worth a ban.

That’s more or less the problem with discussing balance, as it’s based off of far too many variables in this sense, but if it’s to be done, it can really only be done in ideal situations to give an indication, as if you include conjecture based on individual abilities you add another dimension of variables that cannot be accounted for and therefore it doesn’t even serve the purpose of providing a pointer.

And yes, reducing efficiency in one area should indeed be rewarded with improvement in another, but that’s an entirely different discussion from whether it enhances/adds more interest/depth to the game or whether the improvement’s too extreme to be balanced or not. I personally find it to be a bit over the top in its current incarnation, but the only thing I’d want for a fix is a higher damage requirement for a knockback to even take effect and then I’d be happy, as setting up meatshots wouldn’t require to just graze someone with it. However, it’s not about how I’d want to change the FAN even, as it’s quite irrelevant.

I find it interesting to see how the FAN supports defend it, and AcidRenix does raise some points, unlike, well, ANYONE else who supports it.

But in arguing for balance, there isn’t that much else you can do than provide ideal scenarios and somewhat a bit of comparisons to serve as an indication and reference in a discussion, and IMO it’s better to go about balance in that sense rather than attributing it fully to a public poll, and that’s more or less what I’m asking for.

If berserker could read the last 3 posts with this accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyVESGeQPT0&feature=channel_page
and record it, i would +frag him.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!