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I’m nobody in etf2l Is the first thing I should say, however I would devote a large amount of time to see this happen.

So for years people have been talking about how to help the tf2 competitive scene grow, so I wanted to throw the ball around on an idea.

Valve can’t really support current 6v6 the way we like, mostly because it is sooo different from the pub game. Any other game you play (csgo, dota, cod, lol), then the pub game is comparable to the competetive game. However 6v6 currently with it’s rigid “cookie cutter” tactics, class limits and weapon restrictions, is so different from the rest of tf2, it can’t really get valves support, and they have already suggested that with a different system maybe it would be viable. But at the moment you can play thousands of hours of pub, dm and highlander, and still be worse than aweful at 6v6.

One think I have noticed playing lower divs is people don’t get annoyed people running pyro/heavy to mid because it is overpowered. People get annoyed because it destroyed their tactics. If you are a roaming soldier who bombs every badlands mid, and they start running a class that instantly buggers that. Too many players get annoyed rather than adapt. They keep bombing and dieing and getting annoyed, rather than trying something new.

I love 6v6, I play far too much of it, but at the moment it is extremely stagnant. Even Robin walker has said he has stopped watching 6s games, because he never sees anything new. The biggest change lately in 6v6 seems to be some roamers running blackbox, and a more aggressive playstyle, how boring is that.

This brings me on to my final point, if 6v6 isn’t going to fall into obscurity over the years, then it needs to opened up. People who are interested need to be able to just play, not have to learn
“the roll-out”
“the positioning”
“the tactics”.

If running heavy, med, pyro to mid proves to be effective, then that is what matters.

Yes some weapons will instantly become favorable and “overpowered” as some people say, just because they win against the classic setup. You can really say anything is overpowered until it has been tried for long enough to establish there is no counter.

We have a dynamic game, and we are trying to force and narrow playstyle on it.

As Lange said, “just because we have found a good way to play our game, doesn’t mean it is the best way to play it” – Lange (see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcb0mFMtXyE&list=UU_Z4FOQ-L-d_17vV2xxzIvQ)

The way I see it, if we could remove the limits, we could get more support from valve, we could attract more players, and competetive tf2 could eventually be up there with the best.

Just an thought.

Quoted from fraac

If someone doesn’t understand how beautiful you are, you don’t change yourself to please them. Nobody at Valve currently likes 6v6 and that’s fine.

Also going to throw my weightless opinion in here and say that in the long term, making the rules more malleable when it comes to diversity in 6’s is only beneficial. Gets valve more interested, which could mean more support and ultimately more players.

Quoted from Bren

[…]

Also going to throw my weightless opinion in here and say that in the long term, making the rules more malleable when it comes to diversity in 6’s is only beneficial. Gets valve more interested, which could mean more support and ultimately more players.

Valve doesn’t care about tf2, it’s a testing ground for new ideas, they will probably never support competitive tf2 in any form.

Quoted from Arthur

[…]
You can’t just get 6 mates together and play 6v6, you have to play certain classes, learn “the” rollouts and “the” positioning, etc. It’s alientating for so many people who might otherwise get into it.

And? You have to learn how to play in any competitiive game, or you get smushed. It is possible to play without a medic if you really want. When you pick up counter strike you have to learn where to hold, smokes and shit, is that alienating?

The difference between tf2 and dota2/csgo is that dota2/csgo had match making built in from day one. Therefor the “public match making” and the competetive scene doesnt differ (almost) at all. Additionally you cant just customize a hero in dota 2 (unless you are talking cosmetics) and you only have a certain number of weapons (balanced over years of counter strike being played). In tf2 public and the competetive scene are different, because it was divided since day one. In dota you will always know which hero will have which skills. In csgo you have established weapons in the ak, m4 and awp. Teams will only not buy them when they dont have the money for them. I dont see how allowing everything all the time will be useful in the long run. Publics also have no limits on players, should we make it 12v12 now. And what about class limits. (Although most pubs even limit them). Should we allow as many medics and demos as you want? Even without any limits people would still use what is most efficient to win, because that is a competetive way of thinking. In competetive dota teams wont pick heroes because they are fun. Teams will pick heroes for certain strategies, heroes who have synergy with each other, almost every time a similar lineup of carries and supports. In csgo teams wont buy smgs because they like them, they buy aks and m4s because they provide the best accuracy to damage balance. If we allowed everything without any limits, at some point teams would find the perfect setup with the perfect weapons. And all the variety would be gone.
If you cannot deal with a pyro on a mid then you are most likely doing something wrong btw. :p
Also once again the competetive thought, if people dont want to learn about rollouts, then they will never win a middle. If they dont want to know about positioning they will always have a disadvantage. If they dont want to have tactics, it will always just be playing pub in a league.
If we allowed everything from today to tomorrow the first thing to happen would be a lot of players simply leaving. And I’m not sure if thousands of pub players would come streaming in, because they can have organized matches with the same settings every pub offers. Which brings me back to my main point. The mistake was made early on, if tf2 had match making from day one, we might have a different game. But right now tf2 is only the cash cow in valves marketing mix.
Sorry but its just not practicle at all.
Just a couple of lines probably out of order and maybe context. But hey its late.

You can already run pyro and heavy to mid with your own team if you feel like it, you can also hold however you want with your own team.
Thing is people like to win so they like to use the most effective setup and the most versatile tactics.
Also would you like running into 2 demos, 2 medics and 2 wrangled sentries or smth on enemy last when they’re leading 1-0? Didn’t think so.

Quoted from Bloodis

Why haven’t I heard anybody think about that?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/DeannaTroi.jpg

Quoted from Arthur

One think I have noticed playing lower divs is people don’t get annoyed people running pyro/heavy to mid because it is overpowered. People get annoyed because it destroyed their tactics. If you are a roaming soldier who bombs every badlands mid, and they start running a class that instantly buggers that. Too many players get annoyed rather than adapt. They keep bombing and dieing and getting annoyed, rather than trying something new.

That’s why those people are in lower divs though, that’s the difference between an average player and a top player. It’s why there are d6 MGE heros and it’s why people spend several seasons in the same div.
I’m not sure how you think it’s relevant to your main point though as 6v6 is ‘stale’ because what works works and not because the community doesn’t want to see something different.
It’s unfortunate that 6’s is so different from pubs but one can’t really change that unless you want to make it really unrestricted, imagine if it was totally unresticted which honestly would make it terrible as the strongest class in the game by a mile is the demoman so you’d just see loads of them and a medic.

In short the restrictions are there for a reason to make the game work in competitive. If you want to see a ‘comp’ gamemode which is kinda close to pubs then highlander is pretty close I suppose but personally I believe it to be unwatchable as it is so hard to follow with 9 players.

If you want this game to get popular all it would take would be valve putting in a lobby system, just stick a 6v6 option under the MvM button and this would take off in a major way but they won’t ever do that.

Quoted from Sonny Black

The difference between dota and csgo is that both games had match making built in from day one.

It’s not a difference then is it