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The shape of things to come...
Created 28th March 2009 @ 15:03
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This is actually a really good topic.
There are arguments for and against teams being placed in division 1. I totally agree on your point where a team could simply fold before the end of the season, and avoid the drop because they are ‘good enough’ to play there without deserving it.
On the other hand. If you keep placing these ‘above div 2’ standard teams in division 2, it limits the chance of a real division 2 team ever getting promoted to division 1.
For example, if Vale and k1ck were both to be automatically placed in division 2, there is a very strong chance that both teams would be promoted to division 1 the next season. This could be considered unfair on a team currently in division 2 as two of the promotion places for next season have almost certainly been decided. If Vale and k1ck were placed in division 1, those teams in division 2 would have two more promotion spots available (This is of course all pending that Vale and k1cked performed to expectations in division 2).
Other points I read in this thread. The stuff Josh said is bull. ‘Players looking up to you’ rofl. This is online gaming. We are hardly trying to be ‘role models’. If that was the case you may as well start banning players who talk shit a lot, or have a general bad attitude. There are hundreds of them in this community, yourself _could_ be included, though I think you’re a pretty decent guy, others don’t think the same.
To be hounest, I don’t think there is a fair way of adding a new team to a division fairly. If an overskilled team is added to a lower division (be it 6,5,4,3 or 2), the other existing teams in that division lose out. If they get placed straight into division 1, it is unfair on teams that have worked hard the previous season and it’s unfair that they have had to work their way up the tables while another team just jumps straight in.
On a personal level, I wouldn’t really mind what division I play in. Division 2 still has good games available and the only reason why I would bother fighting over a division 1 spot would be for ‘status’ or to help a sponsorship case for my team. Both of which I couldn’t care less about right now ;p
There is so many teams between div1 and div2 that could play at the two levels but dont get in there, while at the same time with the promotions system you end up with teams in div1 and div2 that aren’t actually strong enough to be at that level. Bit of a random idea:
One way to rank what teams should be in divisions 1 & 2 and have the most competitive sides in there could be to get rid of promotion/relegation and the create groups based on seeding.
Base league seeding on the cup results played in the off-season. 128 slots for the cup(making it last 7 weeks) with double elim system coming in at round of 32(there being 30 spaces div1&2). Cup places seeded by hand by the admins and following the tree so the strongest teams shouldnt knock each other out too early.
Use the final standings from the cup as seedings for the following season league places regardless of final standings in the previous season.
You would have to stop the cup dragging on for ages like the last few have though. Make sure the games are played each week. This would also mean that there is less quiet periods because of no competitions.
* No more arguements over dropped teams mid season coming back in at division X the following season.
* Teams get the chance to play for the highest spot they can get rather than ending up in the wrong division(ie vale maybe being div2).
* League groups have the most competitive teams together.
* Less confusion about random playoff matches ‘attempting’ to bodge together mixed up/fucked situation(where there will never be a full agreement on the outcome).
* It makes the cup a more prestigious and important to play in as well as the league.
Yeah there is holes in this that I have thought of while typing it out but hey, Im not an admin now so you guys can look at that, I just put the idea on the table as a base to work from! :p
At the same time I do agree that something needs to be done to encourage teams to stay together as too many people are running out on their sides after a month because its not going how they want. Im all for not letting a side get in above div3 if they didnt play in the cup, because then its not they are getting badly placed based on the 3 months of the previous season and knocked down. They had the opportunity to enter the cup and be seeded if the team has players of that level.
Its kinda like the NA system, where they have a cup and a league and they use the league as the seedings for a smaller cup (only they call it all a season with playoffs when its basically a league followed by a double elim knockout cup), apart from the fact its the other way around because we view the league as more important and are only looking for some seedings for that.
Although this trouble might not be half as bad if the games were played on time. The season is only meant to last 9 weeks yet its lasting almost 12, almost an extra month on top of what it should. If played on time then teams would be back into the system quicker and starting lower might not be so bad because you’d work you way up and down quicker and you’d have less teams spending time in the wrong place.
From Season 4 Rules:
“A detailed Promotion and Relegation System which will take place after regular Season will be published later. When it is published, you can also look on the division tables. A green row indicates a team going up a division, a red row is for a team going down 1 division and a blue row is for the end-of-season playoffs.”
From dAyKiLLeR:
About Div 1 spot:
Playoff Match #1: Both 2nd places of Div 2a/2b play each other (probably dmg vs. Plan-B); Winner goes to Div1 in Season 5; Loser goes to Playoff Match #2
Playoff Match #2: Loser of Playoff Match #1 vs. The Imperial; Winner goes/stays in Div1 in Season 5; Loser goes/stays in Div 2Official announcement in the next days in a newspost.
Note: No new teams can start in Division 1 as long as all spots are filled by previous season results. Anyway, if another Div 1 team folds in the meanwhile, the team with the most potential will get the spot (like it was done this season).
So are you saying TI have to fight to stay up but Vale and/or k1ck will be excused?
Surely both 2nd place Division 2 teams should play off against the teams in 7th and 8th Division 1.
All I really wanted to know was how would the decision be made as to who finished in 8th in Division 1 this season.
It seems poor sport that Vale/k1ck would simply retain their spot with out entering some sort of play-off.
Also it seems a little flawed that the winner of play-off match #1 only has to beat a Division 2 team to be promoted, yet the loser has to beat a Division 1 team.
Would it not make more sense for the Division 2 teams to both have to beat a Division 1 team to prove they are worthy of promotion?
Man, I don’t even know if that makes sense… this really is a can of worms :D
For the record I think Vale and k1ck are definitely both deserving of a chance to play in Division 1 next season.
I really like Arx’ and Moles’ posts. They certainly show that the decision process in terms of promotion / relegation / divisional placements.
Vale / k1ck Insta-Div1
Pros
+ The division both of them will compete in and not steamroll everyone and judging from their results, won’t get steamrolled by everyone.
Cons
– “shits” over the stable teams that have worked their way up through the divisions.
– “shits” over the teams finnished in divison 1 and will now face a play off to stay up.
– “Could” (thats a big COULD) fold again.
Vale / k1ck put in to division 2
Pros
+ Read the cons from above, it reverses all of them.
Cons
– Pretty much garantued 1st place for both teams
– Stops teams that have worked their way up from progressing in to division 1 – although you could argue that if they deserved in to be in division 1, they’d be able to give vale and k1ck a “gg”.
———————-
Theres probably lots more, however, you can see what its like come placements day when this problem is echoed across 6 divisions with 100’s of newly formed teams joining the competition.
On a side note, go find the “Swiss” style on these forums, check out the idea, it “could” solve several problems such as the above.
Looks like we forgot to update the Rules Page with the Promotion / Relegation System which was finalized over a month ago.
I have updated it now, S4 System can be found here: http://daykiller.de/etf2l/s4prom.html
We will stick to that except some changes due to teams dropping.
vale div 1
k1ck div nothing, or max div 2
problems solved
Vale deserve more than k1ck to be in D1 actually , even if they are not really stable (folding/reforming etc)
Admirable, I believe it means that according to rules and what dAy said earlier, Vale/k1ck won’t have a place in the div1 playoffs unless more teams drop out before the next season starts and they certainly won’t be placed to div1 without winning the playoffs. So that means they’re placed to the highest available division which probably is div2 unless more div1 clans (or dmg or plan-b) fold before the next season starts.
And imo that is the fair way to do it, otherwise you’re giving a big fu to the teams that have stayed together and fought to rise one division per season. Even though Vale definitely is skilled enough to finish in the higher half of div1, they made a decision to drop out after 1 game in season 4 and that should have its consequences.
lol moose
first druidz ain’t vale and second we didn’t ‘decide’ to drop out , there was no chance of us continuing like that as druidz
i fully understand that etf2l wants to give some other div2 clans (besides the 2 winners) a chance to play in div1 although this will lead to another uninteresting season in div1 where u can predict the top and bottom spots alrdy; but don’t expect us to play another season in div2
From the Vale team information:
Reform of the former Vale/Druidz team.
Contact Riemu or SKiNNie
Personally, I’d like to see Vale vs k1ck to decide who is in 8th/9th and then let the relegation/promotion system play on from there.
Put them in Div2. If their good enough they will get promoted and if they dont split up in a seasons time their div 1? Easy.
And who knows, the teams that get promoted to div1 this season may get some top players joining them because their div1 and then they may actually remain in div1? ;)
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