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Unlocks panel
Created 30th June 2012 @ 12:31
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Quoted from Chaplain
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Serious bodywarmer envy going on in here, it wasn’t gonna come out for i46, but since it’s such a crowd pleaser…
I doubt you’d be able to wear it the whole lan being a summer lan and all.
Quoted from Kaneco
Holy shit talk about biased examples. LOL, you are so desperate to make a point you can’t even think and consider some of the things you say. If dead ringer were to be allowed in 6 v 6 it would be pretty much worthless, the invisibility on command is one of the most important things for a 6 vs 6 spy, if you run through a team disguised and visible certainly they’re gonna notice, ever more if you have the dead ringer.
The 450hp heavy on middle before soldiers is a ridiculous false example, it simply can’t happen, soldier always gets first.
The sentry 500hp not sure what you’re referring to, if it’s a wrangled sentry lol, when you focus a sentry you will get it destroyed, if it’s wrangled it will take a couple of seconds more, but on the downside it won’t be autofiring so you have more free range to do whatever stuff you have to do
A dead ringer spy doesn’t even have to get kills in a 6v6 to be effective. All he needs to do is remember where the ammo packs are, and revolver you in the back so you turn around and focus him. Seeing as you can’t kill him, he will always be behind to distract you. Really easy to play that way against a small number of opponents.
Secondly, the 450 hp heavy to mid can easily be done with disciplinary action or GRU, disciplinary action especially seeing as you run as fast as the soldier that also gets the boost. (though pretty certain you never said you wanted them allowed, just wanted to say that the guy arguing for unlocks doesn’t seem to understand how they work)
It will take a couple of seconds more, do you realize how little time you have when you uber? and the fact that a wrangled sentry has unlimited range? against one of those you would be forced to pop and spend the entire force on your heavies to bring it down.
EDIT: on top of that, if a good scout where to use the wrangler who is to say he’ll do worse of a job than the sentry itself? a normal autofire sentry only shoots in one direction at a time as far as I know.
I don’t understand how you can’t seem to imagine how these things would be in a 6v6.
After reading this post I trust your judgement even less, and that is actually kind of sad.
Last edited by Tornf4lk,
Quoted from Monkeh
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I knew that was coming :p
Well for a start we have 1 gunboats solly and 1 shotgun most of the time, 2 different sollies on each team. Some teams would have scouts building with BB more often than others, heavy and his sanvich might be seen more…
Having options also makes it more interesting in working out how you can use them best as well, get’s people thinking more about mid fights or one on ones, generate some interest and debate.
Lot’s of unlocks will make the games less bearable for all but a small few, a nice set does little to meta game but allows for more variation and fun, simples….I wish.
way to add a lot of other things into the mix, he asked how varied it would be when every roamer used the gunboats. As far as I can see you didn’t answer that question.
Quoted from Kaneco
People who don’t want unlocks either A) Have been here for a long time and don’t want to take the effort to adapt to changes B) Are top players who don’t want their “throne” taken over by an up and coming player who can make good use of unlocks C) NO FUN ALLOWED, BAN KRITZ AND UBERSAW D) Really prefer vanilla over unlock ruleset, although I believe A and B are the main causes.
I came into this scene playing unlocks, and for the sake of competitiveness I argue against them. I don’t get this thing with NO FUN ALLOWED
since when is a competitive game supposed to be silly fun?
I have fun when one of our strategies works well, or when I or a teammate of mine does a clutch and skillful play. that’s the fun I get from comp tf2.
on top of that if I want silly fun I go and play publics.
They are two different things. Seems to me what you would really want is to sit in mumble with your friends against an organized pub.
Quoted from Tornf4lk
way to add a lot of other things into the mix, he asked how varied it would be when every roamer used the gunboats. As far as I can see you didn’t answer that question.
Quoted from Monkeh
Well for a start we have 1 gunboats solly and 1 shotgun most of the time, 2 different sollies on each team. Some teams would have scouts building with BB more often than others, heavy and his sanvich might be seen more…
I believe that answered the question. 2 different sollies on each team = variation compared to the same load out for both sollies on both teams.
I refuse to accept the argument that allowing more weapons doesn’t bring more variation, it’s silly. When FAN was allowed, (shudder), we had FAN scouts and scatter gun scouts running around. That’s variation. If we allow gunboats we’ll have some roamers using it but others who rely on their shotgun too much to change, that’s variation.
Quoted from Monkeh
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I believe that answered the question. 2 different sollies on each team = variation compared to the same load out for both sollies on both teams.
I refuse to accept the argument that allowing more weapons doesn’t bring more variation, it’s silly. When FAN was allowed, (shudder), we had FAN scouts and scatter gun scouts running around. That’s variation. If we allow gunboats we’ll have some roamers using it but others who rely on their shotgun too much to change, that’s variation.
I want to agree with you on gunboats. However it feels like you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Gunboats are an upgrade, they won’t bring variation. I’m a roamer, being allowed to I would use the gunboats 24/7. As skeej said earlier though, it might be a welcome upgrade to make the soldier less underpowered. we will however almost never see shotgun wielding roamers, and this will create a new playstyle and delete the old. Not variation, but perhaps a welcome change
Quoted from Tornf4lk
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I want to agree with you on gunboats. However it feels like you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Gunboats are an upgrade, they won’t bring variation. I’m a roamer, being allowed to I would use the gunboats 24/7. As skeej said earlier though, it might be a welcome upgrade to make the soldier less underpowered. we will however almost never see shotgun wielding roamers, and this will create a new playstyle and delete the old. Not variation, but perhaps a welcome change
NA soldiers disagree, they play with both items equally, depending on the map/situation.
Gunboats are not an upgrade, you’ll miss the extra fire power against scouts/when bombing
I may not have much of a clue when it comes to this game at the top level, but as I’ve mentioned before, I’ve been talking to people who do have a clue for a while now, I quote an invite soldier talking here:
Most top soldiers in the NA switch accordingly, when on offense, they’ll equip gunboats, but when they’re pushed to last, they switch to shotgun accordingly. It allows roaming soldiers to be a bit more dynamic, it can allow for offensive plays or standard defensive plays. Equipping gunboats does not necessarily degrade the game, as the most important thing about playing the game is timing imo. Also medics will have to adjust and have hyper awareness, I think it will bring a higher skill ceiling for medics as it has in the states, although you may have initial players quitting, you will find diamonds in the rough that truly are spectacular at what they can do at the medic position. Something that brings a fair bit of personality to the game.
I agree.
Did you guys not hear (forgive me if I got the names wrong) CB and djc talking about how gunboats affects the mid fights in na tf2? They were talking on pirate radio about how much of a difference it makes and frankly it sounds like pure aids to me.
Gunboats remove some plays that Zebbo made last night. On gully he unloaded all his rockets and get 2 kills but got a third using his shotgun and some good meatshots. Maybe NA soldiers need to work on their shotgun?
Last edited by Koeitje,
Quoted from Chaplain
Hey kaneco, how about people like me who think vanilla is more fun?
I gave that option, altough I believe it’s not the main cause against unlocks.
Quoted from Chaplain
Ps the football analogy. It doesn’t matter whether you are man u or barca, you still play by the same rules, you just play with different strategies, much like you see in tf2.
The beautiful world of analogies, either way I think you got my point, and I think everyone have to agree that a game with gunboats + escape plan + boston basher + pain train will at the very least be more fast paced than a game without them, even with the same mentality, it”s just a somewhat passive effect of those unlocks on the game. And I like that
Quoted from Chaplain
I think my main flaw is I quite simply have no empathy. I can’t see how unlocks are fun and I fail to recognise how you could have got so bored of tf2 and think unlocks will glaze over these problems. The community made their decision a few seasons back and nothing has changed (equaliser fix hollaaa) so why should we want to overwrite it?
Fair enought, I think everyone has the right to their options and preference. And yes I think tf2 is much more boring in the current EU ruleset. And the community has changed, making the assumption that a community doesn’t change in 1+ yaers is silly. Many players quited, many more joined. And we should at the very least vote or have a team captain panel discussing unlocks at the start of each season much like NA. It can’t be just like, “Prem threw a hissy fit a few seasons ago so we won’t talk about that again ever, god damn those who go against the sacred will of prem “.
Quoted from Chaplain
This is what the community does. Freight. Turbine. Cold front. Obscure. People forget how shit this stuff was and look back in nostalgia and you know what. They are still shit, time and time again. Nothing has changed and I think you need to accept that there was a reason we went vanilla, before people are forced to play with them (or worse some horrid compromise) and rediscover how awful they were all over again. I call it etf2l syndrome.
I mentioned completly different maps and you go and counter my argument by mentioning some of the worst maps in comp tf2 history. Koth has huge potential, and there are maps good enough to be used. I like warmfront, although people seem to don’t lake the stalemates it generates I think it’s not that much stale and at the least it’s much like granary. Process’s coll as well, and dayum that demo rollout, probably one of the hardest, talk about raising the skill cap.
“Nothing has changed”, again, wrong.
Quoted from Chaplain
Let this thread end. Etf2l is a community run league and without significant community (specifically high skilled) player support you will achieve nothing.
“Etf2l is a community run league”, beautiful words, why not live by them and let the community decide then? Instead of only an handful of prem players.
Quoted from Tornf4lk
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A dead ringer spy doesn’t even have to get kills in a 6v6 to be effective. All he needs to do is remember where the ammo packs are, and revolver you in the back so you turn around and focus him. Seeing as you can’t kill him, he will always be behind to distract you. Really easy to play that way against a small number of opponents.
Secondly, the 450 hp heavy to mid can easily be done with disciplinary action or GRU, disciplinary action especially seeing as you run as fast as the soldier that also gets the boost. (though pretty certain you never said you wanted them allowed, just wanted to say that the guy arguing for unlocks doesn’t seem to understand how they work)
It will take a couple of seconds more, do you realize how little time you have when you uber? and the fact that a wrangled sentry has unlimited range? against one of those you would be forced to pop and spend the entire force on your heavies to bring it down.
EDIT: on top of that, if a good scout where to use the wrangler who is to say he’ll do worse of a job than the sentry itself? a normal autofire sentry only shoots in one direction at a time as far as I know.
I don’t understand how you can’t seem to imagine how these things would be in a 6v6.After reading this post I trust your judgement even less, and that is actually kind of sad.
A dead ringer spy is pretty much ineffective in 6v6, last time I checked NA allowed it but tell me how many times have you seen a play or any decent spy play for that matter using the dead ringer.You can fake dead only so many times and any efficient team will kill you in 5-6 seconds max even with he dead ringer
About the heavy, lol at giving the most OP example ever, and lol at saying I don’t understand unlocks, disciplinary action + GRU, well congratz, is that your main argument? Because I didn’t even talk about allowing the disciplinary action.
Wrangled sentry has ilimited range but it doesn’t have even half the focus fire a normal sentry has even if you have good aim, thus giving you more freedom of movement , and if you can’t destroy a wrangled sentry with uber I feel bad for you, but then again I didn’t talk about allowing the wrangler either.
Talk about trusting judgement, your arguments are ridiculous.
Quoted from Monkeh
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I believe that answered the question. 2 different sollies on each team = variation compared to the same load out for both sollies on both teams.
I refuse to accept the argument that allowing more weapons doesn’t bring more variation, it’s silly. When FAN was allowed, (shudder), we had FAN scouts and scatter gun scouts running around. That’s variation. If we allow gunboats we’ll have some roamers using it but others who rely on their shotgun too much to change, that’s variation.
Exatly. Someone who doesn’t accept that allowing more weapons = more variety is totally blind… People are so desperate to make a point against unlocks that they make the silly assumption that all unlocks are upgrades and they don’t add variety.
Quoted from Tornf4lk
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I want to agree with you on gunboats. However it feels like you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Gunboats are an upgrade, they won’t bring variation. I’m a roamer, being allowed to I would use the gunboats 24/7. As skeej said earlier though, it might be a welcome upgrade to make the soldier less underpowered. we will however almost never see shotgun wielding roamers, and this will create a new playstyle and delete the old. Not variation, but perhaps a welcome change
After making this statement “just wanted to say that the guy arguing for unlocks doesn’t seem to understand how they work” you go and top yourself by saying gunboats are an upgrade and by adding them would not add variety. Way to go, seriously, way to go.
Quoted from Koeitje
Gunboats removes some plays that Zebbo made last night. On gully he unloaded all his rockets and get 2 kills but got a third using his shotgun and some good meatshots.
What’s you point then? That it’s not direct upgrade like some people are saying but instead it’s a balanced-grade?
Last edited by Kaneco,
Quoted from Kaneco
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What’s you point then? That it’s not direct upgrade like some people are saying but instead it’s a balanced-grade?
People praise gunboats for the roaming capabilities that it gives, but it also removes some of that. But it doesn’t really change the role of the soldier, and thus nothing changes for the spectators. And, even though you might consider it a sidegrade most of the time during midfights it isn’t. It will turn into a dominant strategy for mids that is a rather boring one. There is literally no argument in favor of them.
Quoted from Koeitje
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People praise gunboats for the roaming capabilities that it gives, but it also removes some of that. But it doesn’t really change the role of the soldier, and thus nothing changes for the spectators. And, even though you might consider it a sidegrade most of the time during midfights it isn’t. It will turn into a dominant strategy for mids that is a rather boring one. There is literally no argument in favor of them.
So first you say it removes roaming capabilities, then you say it’s a dominant strategy for mids? Doesn’t change the role of the soldier? Great, now we’re getting there, at least it’s not the “Gunboats is a crutch for bad play” argument. But a rather boring one for the spectators? I don’t know which games you have been watching in NA but I for one love to see a soldier wall jump or skip jump to bomb a medic or whatever his objective is. And as mentioned earlier, even if it’s allowed not every soldier will use them, even in NA most top soldiers change them accordingly the situation and there almost always at least 1 shotty soldier in each team
Last edited by Kaneco,
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