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Unlocks panel
Created 30th June 2012 @ 12:31
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Quoted from FADe
Allow the escape plan, anything that makes the game play faster is a plus.
Allow self damage scout melees so it frees the soldiers to be more creative in the way of picks/plays, anything that makes that class less boring is a plus.These two alone would be enough to rejuvenate the game and make eu TF2 less of the colossal snore fest it currently is.
Some of the replies here are backwards, kinda reminds me of when the dmg txt hit and some people proclaimed they weren’t going to use it because it makes the game easier knowing how low someone is after you hit them with X amount of shots/dmg.. just because the games not exactly how it was when you were learning it doesn’t make it a bad thing. Somethings clearly change the game for the better and should be embraced.
The problem is, at least how I see it is etf2l are now too scared after the unlock/league boycott by the old guard (most of which don’t even play anymore) which is kinda sad. Made even sadder when you take into account the amount of power this league holds over the whole scene – it’s just one insanely dumb cycle that’ll never get resolved untill someone with ample sized bollocks makes some big decisions.
Exactly, I also feel that’s what’s stopping most of these players to consider unlocks…
Simply because something is old or has that nostalgic feeling of when you first encountered it and experimented with it it doesn’t means it’s better. Some people just need to reflect a bit an let go the vanilla obsession and at least consider and analyze some unlocks, and at the moment some people are doing the exact opposite as I have seen posted here, some people are attached so much to this original system they also want to see such essential things like the kritz banned, which is a ridiculous “request”.
And yes ETF2L holds too much power in this scene but I think they have great potential to use it for good and boost the scene.
Quoted from skeej
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I talked to you about your scepticism towards unlocks freeing up the soldier's abilities, and now that I read this, I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. You're expecting to see entirely new plays, a shift in the metagame. What allowing unlocks like EP, GB, BB (to free soldiers of building uber) does however, is simply add steroids to the currently established metagame. The edges of the confinements of possibilities of play become more elastic, can be played around with more. We allow the most bound-to-routine class (because this whole thing is at its core about the soldier) to be a little more versatile and creative. And since I've never heard anyone scream that the soldier is OP and that the soldier needs CL1 (the only thing you hear people say is the exact opposite), I think it's a fair thing to try in Europe.
You're asking for proof of new tactics, I already pointed you to the ESEA lan finals. The quote from that e-mail that Monkeh got basically states the same thing. Nope, no amazing new ways of approaching the metagame, but just less stalematey, more agressive plays, and quite some plays that were caused by pure individual skill. And in a game that already succeeds so well at diminishing the effectiveness of individual play, I think that allowing a little more heroism in this game is not a bad thing.
I think somehow the addition of a few unlocks to the soldier class motivates soldiers to become better at what they do; because they simply have more tools in their arsenal to approach their goals in different ways. In EU, the amount of amazing soldiers has shrunken to a handful, and this is causing a reverse-snowball effect. No amazing soldiers means no inspiration, no role model, no symbol for newer or lesser skilled players to look up to and aspire. That might sound silly, because "its just a cartoon game", but I believe that in TF2 it also works like that. Just hear how people speak about the highest skilled players in NA TF2 with respect and admiration, how people want to play like Platinum or Blaze for instance.
We don't need a massive overhaul of the metagame, in fact, we don't NEED anything. But injecting that bit of adrenaline into the current metagame by allowing a few unlocks that increase the game's pace, promote clever play, promote indvidual skill, and add spectacle for spectators, doesn't seem like it would hurt the game at all.
Bravo skeej, the more top players openly show their opinions towards supporting or at least considering unlocks the less I will be dismissed as a div6 shitter for supporting them.
And yes, I feel we need to empower more the soldier, currently it just lacks the options it could have, as well as the flow and spectacularity. And it’s obvious how well it worked in America and for the Aussies
I do completely agree with what Skeej said about injecting new life into the game.
People are under the impression that adding unlocks, suddenly changes everything, when in fact, the vast majority of play (even with ALL unlocks allowed), would remain almost identical. I’m not suggesting adding all unlocks to the game (except for my idea of a side league, purely for curiosity reasons), but adding some does open up a few additional strategies, plays, and some highly optional new playing styles.
Quoted from Kaneco
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Bravo skeej, the more top players openly show their opinions towards supporting or at least considering unlocks the less I will be dismissed as a div6 shitter for supporting them.
And yes, I feel we need to empower more the soldier, currently it just lacks the options it could have, as well as the flow and spectacularity. And it’s obvious how well it worked in America and for the Aussies
and what options in particular you think it lacks?
Quoted from skeej
[…]
(…)
I think somehow the addition of a few unlocks to the soldier class motivates soldiers to become better at what they do; because they simply have more tools in their arsenal to approach their goals in different ways. In EU, the amount of amazing soldiers has shrunken to a handful, and this is causing a reverse-snowball effect. No amazing soldiers means no inspiration, no role model, no symbol for newer or lesser skilled players to look up to and aspire. That might sound silly, because "its just a cartoon game", but I believe that in TF2 it also works like that. Just hear how people speak about the highest skilled players in NA TF2 with respect and admiration, how people want to play like Platinum or Blaze for instance.
(…)
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Personally I would just like to see the Soldier buffed.
There is nothing more frustrating than getting denied of the height advantage by a scout and then sitting there, unable to jump again or escape and slowly getting shot down with 10-20 dmg shots from range.
(Actually stairs, tracks, teammates, etc eating all splash is more frustrating.)
Hell, I might actually try to bomb differently if I have a remote chance to get out of there alive.
imho Soldier/my effectiveness declined with every div we climbed, but maybe I’m just bad.
Last edited by slate,
Quoted from rytis
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and what options in particular you think it lacks?
Really? -_-
Read as: “I’m asking a question to which the answer lies in 100 posts before me.”
Simple answer: look at the ESEA lan finals.
Just saw Mixup vs. x6, and I never thought I’d see a gunslinger engi pushing last on warmfront.
Why can’t we be so cool?
Quoted from Ghostface
Just saw Mixup vs. x6, and I never thought I’d see a gunslinger engi pushing last on warmfront.
Why can’t we be so cool?
Because when gunslinger + frontier justice were allowed on pixel pickup people cried when I’d beat them playing full-time engineer. It even went as far as getting me banned while I was adhering to the given ruleset and making my team win.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Why argue about how unlocks make the game faster or slower, when making the game faster is easily achieved by playing scouts only (5v5!) and longer respawn times? :D
I love unlocks threads. 16 pages in, we have accomplished literally nothing, and no-ones minds are being changed.
Quoted from Spike Himself
Why argue about how unlocks make the game faster or slower, when making the game faster is easily achieved by playing scouts only (5v5!) and longer respawn times? :D
Can we please introduce this closed discussion forum as soon as possible? I cannot stand these types of replies any longer.
If you don’t have anything substantial to add to a discussion, just don’t bother please. Stop cluttering up the discussion with uninformed trolly pointless nonsense (your comment does not fit into or considers the context of: TF2 competitive history, TF2 competitive current status quo, TF2 as a game, every argument in every unlocks/class discussion on ETF2L, every argument in every unlocks/class discussion on NATF2, this topic itself, etc etc etc ad infinitum, and comes across as disrespectful to people who are trying to have some form of serious discussion that will at least remotely influence future decisions about the 6v6 metagame rules). Same goes for grammar/spelling-correcting posts by the way.
NoJu: Admins are reading. Changing some form of substantial establishment always takes a longer process. This is not something that can be accomplished overnight.
I think maybe the word strat or tactic is maybe too strong a word for what I mean, maybe I mean ‘situational play’ instead.
Consider a fictional granary mid fight where you got gunboats and your scouts have boston basher…it goes wrong and you lose 3 to there 1, but you, your medic and a scout get out alive. As you’re retreating through yard, on low health but getting healed, you see the stupid enemy combo having a look at yard left side…you’re on 90 health or so and the scout is with you. If you were vanilla soldier you’d all just back up and we’d have that massive stalemate that granary is famous for. With BB and GB though, you decide that leaving the medic alone with the BB scout is OK as you wont lose uber building and the fact your low health isn’t too bad as you’ve got enough to make a rocket jump and take some splash from the pocket…BOOM, off you go, ‘Jumpin’ med’ you call as your medic and scout back off, building uber as they go. You take down the medic with your daring and unlock inspired play, the crowd goes wild and you win the game.
Just 1 thing my feeble brain came up with as I was testing the eyes of some poor fool a few minutes ago…bet there’s loads more plays on loads more maps that others with less feeble frontal lobes will fathom in the fullness of time.
Quoted from Monkeh
I think maybe the word strat or tactic is maybe too strong a word for what I mean, maybe I mean ‘situational play’ instead.
Consider a fictional granary mid fight where you got gunboats and your scouts have boston basher…it goes wrong and you lose 3 to there 1, but you, your medic and a scout get out alive. As you’re retreating through yard, on low health but getting healed, you see the stupid enemy combo having a look at yard left side…you’re on 90 health or so and the scout is with you. If you were vanilla soldier you’d all just back up and we’d have that massive stalemate that granary is famous for. With BB and GB though, you decide that leaving the medic alone with the BB scout is OK as you wont lose uber building and the fact your low health isn’t too bad as you’ve got enough to make a rocket jump and take some splash from the pocket…BOOM, off you go, ‘Jumpin’ med’ you call as your medic and scout back off, building uber as they go. You take down the medic with your daring and unlock inspired play, the crowd goes wild and you win the game.
Just 1 thing my feeble brain came up with as I was testing the eyes of some poor fool a few minutes ago…bet there’s loads more plays on loads more maps that others with less feeble frontal lobes will fathom in the fullness of time.
Or you jump back with the combo chasing you. The enemy soldier does a double rocket jump using the wall to close the gap. You aim your rocket launcher at him at the rocket hits him right in the face. The enemy soldier now flies up and you follow up with a second shot. The crowd goes wild while gibs rain down. Your point?
But wait! Even better. You are not a soldier anymore! But a gunslinger frontier justice engineer. And you pew pew pew.
Last edited by Koeitje,
Quoted from slate
There is nothing more frustrating than stairs.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. If you want to buff the soldier make _pro versions of the map with slopes everywhere instead of fucking stairs.
Fuck stairs.
Quoted from AcidReniX
And for a post from RTS a few pages back.
Pyro is viable in vanilla. But it’s only viable for sitting on your last point, blasting an ubered combo back through the door they came from, or maybe on the tower of gravelpit. A couple of unlocks allow it to become a viable main class, for the skilled players who know how to play it.
But I think of a pyro as an utility class, to waste your opponents team time, or get yourself into an advantage when going uber vs uber on last which she doesnt need unlocks to do..
Going pyro on mid is kinda gay tho :D
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