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First of all this is not because we loose warmfront games, to be fair we beat quite a bunch of teams that we would probably loose on granlands.

I just want to show you my view of this map, and hell maybe I’m right and someone whos responsible for etf2l map picks would understand that picking random maps is not cool ( I recall it with gorge ). As an good examples I will use granary and badlands. So here we go:

Rollouts
You don’t even need to compare it with other maps, since warmfront has only one rollout: demoman goes on the cliff and the rest goes throu middle. This is why:

Demoman arrives fastest on mid so if he’s going left and to the big health pack, he will be easily delt by enemy scouts and demoman that is on the cliff, since friendly scouts won’t be in time to help him. Also if for example demoman somehow doesn’t die, he has almost no use since he will be forced to use pressure on demo that is on the cliff and enemy combo will be unharmed. And its super easy to avoid stickies and pipes while you’re on a cliff.

Second rollout is when everyone/combo goes left. Well please do that more often, since the tunel is so small that its almost impossible to push middle when enemy demos is on the cliff. True story.

The rollout when everybody goes cliff: well thats just funny since you will loose roof advantage in the result that you’ll be super late.

Sniper in the rollout: I will mention sniper later, but one thing that some enemies used, is going far left with sniper ant trying to get pick on the demo that just arrives on middle. Thats just sad (read more for sniper love).

Middle itself

Lets look at badlands: badlands have terrain with cliffs, bridge on middle, some random mini mountains, trains and a lot of stuff you can abuse for your advantage. Since the map is so “complex” the vision is big. And if we’ll look at granary, the terrain is flat and easy, but the vision is much smaller what ends up in blind spam and etc. Its okay because we like spam.

Now warmfront: The terrain is horrible, so many useless mountains and wood stuff, rocks etc. It’s very hard to navigate yourself since the only different thing is the middle gates metals (one is red another is blue). In addition they put giant house in middle so we would not see anything. You can not see enemy scouts, you notice enemy soldies when they’re huging you and the terrain so so horrible so when you spam pipes roll out of map. Picture: http://img828.imageshack.us/i/middle.jpg/

Second

Ok to be fair second is pretty good.

Last

Lets take badlands again: last on badlands is very closed and has 4 small entarances. The normal badnalds push is you uber, you pop enemies, go back fight and loose/win (I know there are lots of different pushed but the point is not there). The entarances are so small that it is easy to block it with stickies, but it doesn’t effect much because enemies are close. If we’ll look at granary last then we’ll see BIG WIDE OPEN area. There are much less sticky pick spots on granary than badlands, so enemies won’t need to pop early as the are is so big so they would fade before making major damage to defenders. The poin is easy spam = small area, hard to spam = big area.

Now the warmfront: Heres the quick picture where can you put stickies on warmfront: http://img31.imageshack.us/i/stickieslast.jpg/ yes you get it. Everywhere. That results in attacking team poping before entaring the room, well okay badlands has the same thing, but warmfront things that it is cool to put lots of walls for enemies to hide behind. There were actually few times when our uber fadet even before I managed to make some damage to enemy medic. Also its supe hard to fall back from last point because of walls and stairs and god knows why there are collons.

The sniper

The map is playable with all those stuff I said before, unless enemies take sniper. Pictures don’t lie. http://img849.imageshack.us/i/snipermid.jpg/ and it doesn’t include sniper pushing 2nd. Well basicaly if you lost mid and defending against sniper that can see this http://img189.imageshack.us/i/snipercliff.jpg/ ( there is NO WAY you can get him ) and enemy team are holding cliff, you’re doomed to hold top right hiding behind the wall. And eventually sniper will move left and then you’re basically forced to push out enemies with positional disadvantage.

It is just not fun to play when all you thing about is how to hide. Also it slows down game a lot.

END

These are the major things I wanted to point out. There are a lot of more like you can sticky jump from your 2nd to enemies 2nd due map being so linear, heavies on last and etc. I think someone could make pro version with flat middle, some angle turn between middle and second so snipers won’t have that vision, and either more open or smaller last. Not a whine just my opinion.

Ty if you read it all.

shit map, fps drops everywhere. also people get stuck in some spots (too lazy to find the vids , but there is) .
and I agree with you.
replace warmfront with freight? :)

Terrible map

People get mad when there are no new maps introduced and they get mad when shit new maps are introduced. People will get mad anyway and as long as ETF2L does what they think is a good thing to do (lol cinnamon) then we will have this every season.

If only the ESL-Site wasn’t so shit – at least they have a proper mappool (albeit snakewater rc2 being outdated) and vanilla.

Good points all around. Now just wait for all the rage when Bazillion comes about…

I think ETF2L needs to take another look at Snakewater as imo, it’s a fantastic map that ESL made the right choice in picking. I’m not saying ESL > ETF2L as that gets chucked around way too often but I certainly think they made the better choices with their map pool and arguably their turbine rules.

Snakewater adds something new to the game without being so different that it’s frustrating to learn. Despite this it doesn’t just copy paste elements from other maps *cough* cp_follower *cough*.

But this isn’t the point of this thread, back to Warmfront. I pretty much agree with everything dauk said. The last point is a mess, that’s my main gripe. The mid is mono-dimensional and irritating, the only valid tactic I’ve found is using the optimal rollout dauk mentioned and going really aggressive.

Conclusively, out with Warmfront, don’t bring Freight back as it’s so incredibly controversial, consider Snakewater.

Quoted from KrullkrigareN^

Terrible map

Biggest gripe with this map is the last point. It’s completely retarded to push and to defend.

Quoted from Mike

[…]

you missed something, people wouldn’t get mad if NEW GOOD maps were introduced, such is the case in esl where snakewater and turbine_pro were introduced, hence the top teams playing there ALONG WITH vanilla+med

I implied that with “proper mappool” :(