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Ban Natascha?
Created 15th June 2010 @ 11:44
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“Lower skilled teams have a chance at beating high skilled teams by using retarded tactics”
I’d much rather have that as an option than having higher skilled teams win by default because they are better at executing the ‘current’ tactics and no new tactics can be devised. That’s just dumb. The worst part about it, is these new tactics come from changes that valve make to the game (they are hardly biased about how strategies develop). Yet it is a section of the community that decides that certain weapons and unlocks (meaning certain strategies and tactics) shouldn’t be used. Most of this section of the community IS biased towards removing these strategies because they simply… don’t, and wouldn’t ever use them… so why let anyone else.
People then argue that it’s not fun to play against certain weapons, but then for a large portion of the community, it is fun to play with, and against them. People enjoy the diversity and probably more importantly… the challenge of having to face different combinations of classes and weapons. It just so happens the loudest members of the community tend to be in the ‘top’ teams who only enjoy one style of play (coincidently, the one that keeps them at the top (being the best at the ‘standard’ play)).
Not saying that with unlocks some low skill team is going to dominate a top teams, but it’s like starcraft. There are players who play an amazing standard game and rarely get beaten straight up at that game, but they do lose games to cheese builds and timing pushes. Effectively, the top teams pushing for vanilla tf2 in comparison are playing a ‘No rush before 15 minutes’ game of starcraft. This eliminates the ‘cheese’ and timing builds and forces them into playing ONLY the standard game. No one likes being ‘cheesed’ in starcraft, it’s not fun to play against, but it’s adds another dimension to the game and there is an element of risk. Without cheese games and timing pushes, starcraft wouldn’t get half of the audience as people would just be playing the same match over and over once the best strategies had been developped… just like in TF2.
Yes, but currently we are in a situation where we ban only certain types of cheese. Going on your SC analogy, it’s like we’ve banned 4 pool but BBS is still allowed.
Choosing which weapon to use in which situation is a tactic sure, but even Brood War has ways of artificially balancing the different builds/races, by introducing new maps to the competition. If you follow the scene, you will know certain maps are introduced to try and curb imbalances of the time (e.g. 2008 Protoss dominance). Otherwise, the game would still be stuck on Lost Temple with Terran dominating using cliff drops.
The TF2 scene is not equipped for this though and it’s a lot easier for admins to ban “broken” weapons to introduce some semblance of balance to a 6v6 format. In a pub, it’s no big deal if a medic gets TDHed on some stairs but it is in a competitive format. Valve do try and make fixes for the competitive community but you have to remember their main focus is to create fun on a 16v16 pub server.
Last edited by kuma,
Quoted from Sir Remix
Just becouse it’s annoying, it dosent mean it have to be banned.
why is FaN banned?
Natasha is shit. It’s not interesting, clever or skillful in the slighest. Ban that shit.
Quoted from kaidus
Natasha is shit. It’s not interesting, clever or skillful in the slighest. Ban that shit.
I agree with this. Whenever I play as Natasha heavy I feel like a huge faggot (bring in the jokes) for slowing everybody the fuck down.
A lot of people speak of certain unlocks and how they are not skillful. How about you define “skill”? Can you do that? I bet most people cannot.
If the only skillful thing for you is to be able to kill 5 people in a row with a standard weapon, then you are clearly wrong. Especially in a team game like TF2, there’s way more to it.
Also, many people say the unlocks add nothing to the gameplay. Have you ever seriously tried to play with the unlocks for a certain amount of time trying to create a metagame for them, and have you tried inventing counters to that in turn? Most people’s opinions are based on assumptions and not facts (Okay, unlock x *might* do this if thing y happens, unless there’s z, and when it’s Tuesday it’s a totally different story).
Last edited by Rele,
It isn’t skillful because it’s a point and shoot class that uses a weapon that shit players and good players would get roughly the same damage out of.
Quoted from Rele
Also, many people say the unlocks add nothing to the gameplay. Have you ever seriously tried to play with the unlocks for a certain amount of time trying to create a metagame for them, and have you tried inventing counters to that in turn? Most people’s opinions are based on assumptions and not facts (Okay, unlock x *might* do this if thing y happens, unless there’s z, and when it’s Tuesday it’s a totally different story).
This works when describing a 1v1 game where changes hardly ever occur, i.e. SF, SC etc.
The problem with TF2 is new changes are constantly being made, at a pace where a metagame cannot even evolve. The vanilla gamestyle has been around for 2 years, but the meta is still shifting there even now. With new unlocks being added every few months, it’s impossible to establish whether these additions are positive for competitive gameplay, and whether they are broken, as they have not been tested competitively before they are released.
The Natascha slowing from massive distances may be fine in a pub, but in a competitive environment you are forced into specific counters which are not viable a lot of the time. It’s fine to keep bugs and untested factors in a 1v1 game as there are a limited number of variables, allowing counters (and counters to counters) as Sirlin describes. But in a team game there are way too many variables to account for introducing continuous unlocks to an unsupported format without prior testing.
Imagine if TF2 was designed for the 6v6 format, and we were allowed to test unlocks before they are released. Would the Natascha be kept with a slow without drop-off? Would the TDH have minicritted on jumps at the beginning? I’m guessing no, and until they are properly tested I understand why certain items are banned. However I don’t understand the inconsistency in how it’s done.
Last edited by kuma,
Quoted from kaidus
It isn’t skillful because it’s a point and shoot class that uses a weapon that shit players and good players would get roughly the same damage out of.
That statement doesn’t make sense. Does a div6 player get less damage from a shotgun meatshot than a div1 player would?
And please don’t bother with replying “But Div1 players meatshot more often hence they get more damage”, because it’s got nothing to do with the game mechanics whatsoever.
Better aim being rewarded with more damage has nothing to do with the mechanics of a first person shooter? Yes ok mate.
It’s got nothing to do with the properties of a shotgun, no ok mate.
Last edited by Rele,
kaidus you’re such a chav :D
i love natascha
Pretty boring to play agianst and play.
Also being slowed down at long range is faggoty.
+1 for the ban.
lol. How’s the full time pyro working for you AcidRenix?
So then… if we do allow unlocks instead of banning them because they’re simply shit and fuck up the game in so many ways, try to tell me:
How do you adapt to new weapons coming every month if you’re still finding new ways to play with and versus standart weapons?
You should use unlocks to create new tactics and new metagame I agree, but to some damn extent. If we change the metagame every month this is not going anywhere is it? You all say you want tf2 to grow, you want tf2 to flourish into a competitive game, embraced by sponsors so, stick to what you have. Create a standart. The more you change and the faster you change it the more things get fucked up.
And to relentless…
A meatshot is a meatshot. True.
Now lets compare shall we?
Div 6 Scattergun scout – Lower damage output because of a weaker aim
Div 1 Scattergun scout – Higher damage output because of better aim
Div 6 Heavy w/ Natascha – Point, aim, Shoot. Target barely moves -> High damage output
Div 1 Heavy w/ Natascha – Point, aim, Shoot. Target barely moves -> High damage output
Wait? Where did the factor SKILL (Movement, target engagement, aim) interfere with the damage output here? Oh ye. It didn’t. See the problem now?
Last edited by Psyche,
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