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Dead Ringer Ban Discussion
Created 25th October 2016 @ 15:18
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Aoshi, I basically just asked this:
it is time to move the discussion back to the Admins about whether they can give us a clear purpose of the whitelist and define all these associated terms to with weapon bans.
Rest of the posts is fairly irrelevant to the question but lets you understand my perspective.
Here’s my response to this drama:
Dear Muuki: You should see a doctor about your anal bleeding you mentioned on stream for everyone to see due to experimental anal sex with your new boyfriend. I told you in the chat we had before that you should make sure he uses lube and have him wear a condom when he puts it in but you didn’t listen, if it gets any worse see a doctor.
Last edited by sheepy dog's hand,
I’m a bit confused when some people are saying that banning DR will allow for more diverse playstyles. Haven’t been following the current meta (I imagine DR gunspy is popular) but throughout several seasons both invisiwatch and DR have been used in prem, often depending on the map or what the spy prefers. With only the invisiwatch left, I think playstyles are a lot more limiting than before. There is also no room to switch around and become less predictable. The DR is far better now than it used to be, especially in comp.
Also the DR used to be 90% damage mitigation and close to instant restack with an ammo pack. I’m not saying people didn’t have a problem with it then, they did. They reduced the mitigation a bit, then Valve redesigned it so you can’t tank ubers or be unkillable anymore, which was the idea behind the speed buff. The DR is far better now for comp than it was back then.
No Lazy, you missed a patch or two lmao
DR, for quite a long time, was 90% damage shield with 6.5 seconds of 90% damage resistance cloak. Then in 2010 they changed it so there was a 35% cap on ammo that could be received from a single ammo pack, be it medium or large. It remained unchanged in that form for 3 years until the summer 2013 patch, where tanking damage reduced the damage resistance, since bodyblocking spam for 6.5 seconds was a tad silly.
Then two years later Gun Mettle arrived and gave it a 50% damage resistance upon initial hit and the weird bonuses for the first three seconds, which was bumped to 75% during December of the same year. But more importantly it has a 35% reduction in ammo pickup from ammo boxes, meaning it is in actuality far more spammable now than it was for the 5 years where it essentially went unchanged save for a tweak of the shield. I’ll explain below.
The “35% less ammo pickup” is slightly misleading because of the way tf2 does maths. Medium packs give 50% normally, but the 35% penalty is a multiplication, not a subtraction. So it’s 0.5×0.65 = 32.5% cloak gained from small packs. Naturally large packs behave as expected since, surprise surprise, 1×0.65 is the same as 1-0.35. So essentially in exchange for a 15% reduction in your initial damage shield, and then starting out with 65% resist instead of 90% for the supercloak as well as a 2.5% reduction in cloak gained from medium packs (lol) and the inability to extend the cloak meter while invisible, you have gained 3 seconds of speed boost, afterburn immunity, and large ammo packs grant you far more ammo than before, which sounds negligible until you realise that the speed boost not only gets you to those packs far quicker but payload maps have a small abundance of the things. It’s not exactly hard for a spy to get ammo. On 5CP maps, the DR is weaker but that’s always been the case since ammo is more scarce on those maps.
To summarise: The Dead Ringer in its current form is stronger than it has ever been. The problem was never how the unlock behaved back in Season 1, but how it behaves NOW. It’s a mess of poor balance decisions and it should not have all the extra bonuses. I’d be fine with it if one of the following was removed: Spammability, speed boost and afterburn immunity, or shield reduced. The most feasible option I can see is reinstating the 2013-2015 DR, but since valve really like sticking to some small part of their decisions, a 75% shield upon first hit. I wouldn’t mind it being 90%; I just know Valve won’t do that.
Steve,
I love you. You know that.
However, I am failing to understand why you chose to leave the adminteam instead of posting these exact same arguments in the adminforums. They would have had much more impact and weight to them. You are bringing up excellent arguments here. It llooks like you put a lot of thought and time into writing these posts…
I was not present to said meetings/votes. I am one of those mentioned -in League admin related issues – inactive HL admins. So it could be my bad.
Quoted from DCS
Steve,
I love you. You know that.
However, I am failing to understand why you chose to leave the adminteam instead of posting these exact same arguments in the adminforums. They would have had much more impact and weight to them. You are bringing up excellent arguments here. It llooks like you put a lot of thought and time into writing these posts…
I was not present to said meetings/votes. I am one of those mentioned -in League admin related issues – inactive HL admins. So it could be my bad.
Shame steve didn’t say any of these arguments in the discussion and instead said he was unsure about the vote and focussed on shit talking. It would have been nice to have had a more mature debate
Quoted from Hildreth
[…]
That is the leagues work, to answer the complaints of their community.
“complaints of their community” != a few guys writing essays
the admins are under no obligation to respond to the senseless garbage that gets posted in this thread.
Quoted from ondkaja
[…]
“complaints of their community” != a few guys writing essays
the admins are under no obligation to respond to the senseless garbage that gets posted in this thread.
just because your brain can’t comprehend it doesn’t mean its senseless garbage
You’re absolutely right Chronos. I assumed that in the discussion I was surrounded by players that had the same level of understanding of the game as me. That was clearly not the case for some of them, or at least they didn’t make the effort to appear knowledgeable on the subject. Hopefully you’ve been able to extract some knowledge from my posts here.
Stinson, I’m more than happy to talk over the reasons I left the admin team with you but this isn’t really the time and place to do so
P.S. It’s hard to be 100% sure about a vote when you are given 2 minutes to think about your answer. If anyone was 100% sure about it, they either gave it much though beforehand or made a rash decision. I didn’t consider developing arguments for banning the DR a good way to spend my time because to me the weapon is not OP. And I have not heard arguments from the side that did feel this way at the time of the vote.
Last edited by Steve!,
Quoted from Muuki
[…]just because your brain can’t comprehend it doesn’t mean its senseless garbage
projection
Also there seems to be a misunderstanding towards the obligations of admins.
Our job is not to read through all the threads on this website answer possible questions. If you wish to talk to an admin, you are welcome to use our support ( IRC). And even there we don’t HAVE to answer questions that don’t need urgent answers.
These public forums are for our users to discuss matters. Sure, most admins will have a general idea of what is being discussed, but that doesn’t mean they have to actively be involved.
Not even in our feedback forums we have to answer. Feedback forums are for… well feedback. That means telling us what you think about certain things. Here we are obliged to read the discussion, yes. But not necessarily respond.
Although I do admit all in all it feels better if we do respond at some point. But I don’t think it is fair to say it’s our job
It doesn’t matter what your job is, but it is nice if you would respond from time to time, in fashion of what aoshi did yesterday, that’s great. Nobody needs to do anything, it’s just nice if you do, that is all. Shitposting always comes from the same people anyhow (see these two threads), so that’s easy to filter out.
Now getting thread back on track, again. If any admin/meaningful person could take a look at what i critiqued aoshis response to steve, goreston and hildreth, and tell me why it doesn’t hold up or stuff like that (or just consider it), that would be sweeeeeeeet.
Last edited by Toast,
Quoted from Chronos
Shame steve didn’t say any of these arguments in the discussion and instead said he was unsure about the vote and focussed on shit talking. It would have been nice to have had a more mature debate
Steve said he was against the ban. One shouldn’t need to argue against a ban if it hasn’t been banned anyway, especially for the period of time it wasn’t, unless proper arguments for it are brought up, which didnt happen. The whitelist is the way it is because people have thought about it and discussed it. A change in it needs justification, it needs a reason. The only reason Bureau brought up for the ban was that I said that it should either have been No-ban or DR-ban. Even in the post discussion you didn’t bring any reasoning up, nobody did. What khazul said wasn’t as much an argument for the DR ban, as much as it was him agreeing that it could be annoying in some way, because teams have a hard time killing DR spies, which has now been argued against.
Another thing is that most of the discussion involved sniper, which is strange because the only thing this whitelist achieves is massively lowering diversity in playstyles, nerfing engi, spy and buffing sniper.
Last edited by Toast,
Quoted from ondkaja
[…]
“complaints of their community” != a few guys writing essays
the admins are under no obligation to respond to the senseless garbage that gets posted in this thread.
This is my definition of a complaint:
: ‘Any expression of dissatisfaction, whether oral or written, and whether justified or not, from or on behalf of an eligible complainant’
Your opinion of “senseless garbage” is subjective, you basically can’t be bothered to read it and/or don’t understand the points raised and/or don’t feel they are important to you. But they’re important to me and important to others.
Quoted from DCS
Also there seems to be a misunderstanding towards the obligations of admins.
Our job is not to read through all the threads on this website answer possible questions. If you wish to talk to an admin, you are welcome to use our support ( IRC). And even there we don’t HAVE to answer questions that don’t need urgent answers.
These public forums are for our users to discuss matters. Sure, most admins will have a general idea of what is being discussed, but that doesn’t mean they have to actively be involved.
Not even in our feedback forums we have to answer. Feedback forums are for… well feedback. That means telling us what you think about certain things. Here we are obliged to read the discussion, yes. But not necessarily respond.Although I do admit all in all it feels better if we do respond at some point. But I don’t think it is fair to say it’s our job
I agree with some of your sentiments, and appreciate the answer but you should still answer this question:
What is the purpose of the whitelist?
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