Forum
Regarding demoman limit
Created 8th June 2008 @ 16:55
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I don’t understand why this is being still discussed.
There isn’t a single tactic in TF2 that can’t be countered.
Stickies are way too overrated, they are shot slowly, they explode slowly, they need a lot of strategy, mind game, anticipation, the nades are incredibely slow, they damage LESS than stickies. If you want to compare 2 demo to 2 scouts or 2 soldiers etc, then u must compare this on the same basis of skill. And imho, 2 scouts as experienced as 2 demo who are able to spam yet defend / cover their ass / aim with the nade, trust me, the scouts pwn those demos. As far as im concerned the only problem 2 demos bring out is the heavy, who becomes quite useless. But if a team plays 2 demos, dont be stupid , dont use the same classic tank strategy, switch to solly or scout or spy, and trust me, ur demomen will get raped in no time.
Also, stickies damage is DEFINITELY NOT THAT 1300 HP. This works if we would put ALL of them under ur feet.
In almost all situations stickies are placed 2 / 3 feet away from an opponent, which makes far less damage… So basically I think everybody has a misconception of the stickies being “winbombs” lol, because most people are dumb enough to underestimate demos who feel where ur gonna strafe and end up trapping u pathetically.
When they spam, they are forced to aim in one direction. I remind people the only spam thats dangerous is the nade spam, and they’re pretty limited (4 in the loader, slow reload, only 4 clips). But nade spam is efficient only when couped with sticky spam. And they’re still easily avoidable, slow to burst… So how can a demo rule the game that much ?
I think the problem here is related to maps, not classes. Some maps have choke points that are fucked up, and not just for the demoman. Well doors anyone ?
Maybe if people werent stupid, they would always check gates, by opening them a bit and going away. Most of the time thats where the demoman’s spam is disgusting. But thats what FPS matches are about: clearing each corner of a map while advancing together. So no whine about that please. In the case they spam in the outside, a snipe can get them easily. Still, in the CP_Well doors case… What to do ?
If the team is spy checking, then the team cant defend the demomen against a massive rush after the demomen ended spamming nades. There are lots of entry points, demoman has only 8 stickies available at once, and 2 demos cant one shot everybody. Also, a soldier suicide can just open the path to two fast scouts who will kill the demomen in no time, while they’re busy pulling back to stay alive, thus allowing the rest of the team to attack, and the suicide disavantage comes with the 2 demomen forced to pull back for a second.
If the demomen sticked places, then the blast area of a rocket can push those stickies. It also takes a long time to place stickies, and the clips run away pretty fast when playing spammy.
If the team aint spy checking… Need I say more ? :D “Entry clear sir”.
The thing is, most people here are used to play backshot / rushy tactics, and demomen just rape this kind of sleazy behavior.
But if u wanna go that way, I think we should limit to only one scout, because scouts spam a lot of fast, hardly counterable and seriously damaging hit’n’run attacks :) While those ****** stickies can be pushed oh so far with a single rocket when the blast is calculated well.
When it comes to consider the “POWER” of a class, consider the characteristics of that class, not just the theorical damage they do. It’s way too easy to say “demo’s overpowered” when demo needs a lot of skill, setup and anticipation, to live up to his huge lacks of speed & direct fire.
Yo go girl! lol funk <3 ;p
Maybe if people werent stupid, they would always check gates, by opening them a bit and going away. Most of the time thats where the demoman’s spam is disgusting.
Sorry not wanting to flame or anything but I stopped reading when you said that. :P
no worries Wlv but could u develop ur point a little? :D
as far as im concerned, i’ve never seen stickies “spam” (far more than two scattered around) being effective when they are not hidden… When layed on the ground, rockets can push those real far. So the spam theory is basically a whole lot of BS. I dare to say that, cause I almost never see people trying to push stickies, even if this can save a team from 3 guys being banged at once, with a single rocket.
FFA engies have that knowledge, as many of them push stickies with their gun (very easy, very far, very fast) when demomen start launchin em (slowly, endangered) from a cover.
Again, people who think those are winbombs are simply uninformed regarding their physical characteristics. It’s damaging, but that damage requires way too much setup conditions (time, aim, anticipation, backup from scouts).
Now considering this ability for all classes to push stickies, reconsider the question. Since a single soldier unit (or a demoman) can push stickies, REGARDLESS OF THEIR NUMBER, with a single shot, 2 demomen in a team represents, in that way, a huge disadvantage, unlike the idea we have of a demo couple. Fun fact is, I have yet to see people do that in war.
Example: recently, 4K^Ryb tried to stick their 2nd point on prograna when wotr sent their scouts. Scouts capped and ryb got killed most of the time, how come ? Because byte always pushed his stickies. And if Ryb had hymzi spamming with him, byte still could have pushed all with a single sticky since what matters is the range of his sticky explosion. It could have been coinz or the other soldier. That means all “mid-weight” classes can push the stickies very fast, if a demo spams from a cover, rendering his spam useless.
And if Ryb & Hymzi started spammin nades to bypass this ability, they’d be forced to focus on that direction, opening the path for scouts / spy to reach em and kill em / make em play defensive, while the rest of the team just has to wait until nades explode. Again, they are not so damaging without direct contact, if the rest of the team avoids being too close to those nades demomen can’t do anything. And a smart medic can avoid them all, due to their slow detonation, despite the demo’s reduced ability to spam.
I say reduced cause the nade launcher model seems to load 6 nades instead of 4.
Overall, this had been discussed before with the rough majority agreeing on DM2 or CL1, and a bunch (or a huge load, w/e) of people not knowing demomen properly shouldnt be asking a DM1 without CL1, for all the reasons pointed out regarding the classes setup conditions.
Maybe we should have a public vote on CL1?
Funny enough, the one who started all this, Riemu, has left the scene or at least 4Kings.
Check it out: http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/34067/ .
I guess this discussion dies a slow death, now. :)
I would hate it if there would be a dl1. As said before it limits the choice of tactics and that is never a good thing.
2 good demos is bad, 2 good scouts is bad, 2 good soldiers is bad and so on. If we now ban the two demoman tactic what comes next? After a while 2 heavies starts to be a videly used tactic and then you can’t even counter is that easily because you are limited to just one demoman (just an example).
I have to agree with Byte for all he said. Deal with the 2 demoman tactic instead of whining about it like little pigs.
Cavaliers say: Demolimit 1 !
I haven’t elaborated as I don’t have an opinion for or against 1x demoman :)
I’m just interested in what people have put in here so far, some really good points coming up for both sides of the argument, the reason I posted what I did is because of the way you made out anyone who is against 2x demo’s is a retard, by being pedantic (the CHECK FOR STICKIES AND NPS LOLZ), the rest of your post, was actually fairly interesting :)
Repeating myself here, but.
If demolimit -> 1, then it would be just to be done via classlimit -> 1!
Why just f**k up the clans that have their setup around 2 good demos, let’s balance the game up a bit more then and make it more even for everyone, not just benefitting clans with 2 great scouts, 2 great Soldiers or such.
If we would only remove 2 demos from the setup, 2 great soldiers can rape up a team, or 2 great scouts could. Just as 2 demos _CAN_ now. There are always some people that these setups would frustrate. And as we’re seen the last few days, even on the elite level 2 demos doesn’t guarantee the win. Wotr used 2x demos against interrobang!? and lost. Last night team Sweden used occasionally 2 demos, yet in the end, they lost the game to team Finland.
As for now I see the situation like this, it’s just some people complaining about not getting things done the easy way.
cl2,ml1. Good posts depch, i would give my own thoughts but i can say that they are pretty much the same as depchs.
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